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why I am posting those

发信人: ayanami (丑丑的甲亢), 信区: ITnews
标  题: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Mon Sep  4 17:45:56 2000), 转信

Again my point, windows product sucks to be server, enterprise level.

--
"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 209.138.23.12]
发信人: qili (qili), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Mon Sep  4 18:02:35 2000), 站内信件

【 在 ayanami (丑丑的甲亢) 的大作中提到: 】
: Again my point, windows product sucks to be server, enterprise level.

let's be fair. Windows sucks as much to be a server as Linux to be
a desktop environment.

There is no doubt that Windows isn't ready for high-end applications (
you don't see a bank keeping its customer account info on a Windows
box, or an airline keeps its ticket reservation system on a Windows
box). But you would be blind if you didn't see that Windows has come
a long way from its Win 1.0 days of the 1980s). It is probably fair
to see that during the same period of time, Unix hasn't done nearly
as much for its users.

Does the fact Windows sucks to be a server indicate that Windows
is an inferior product? yes, if you also agree that Linux is
inferior because it sucks (big time) as a desktop environment, or
your Focus sucks because it cannot tow 50 passengers.

Each product has its intended market niche where it is competitive.
outside of that niche, it will have a harder time to survive.

--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 209.246.66.209]
发信人: ayanami (丑丑的甲亢), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Mon Sep  4 18:10:44 2000), 转信

Let's just say WinNT which win2k is based on has a bad security model and
an OS design to start with. I would have to say that it was not designed for
enterprise use from the beginning. You can't just improvise to get it better.
It can never achieve the line that is beyond its league.

【 在 qili (qili) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 ayanami (丑丑的甲亢) 的大作中提到: 】
: : Again my point, windows product sucks to be server, enterprise level.
: let's be fair. Windows sucks as much to be a server as Linux to be
: a desktop environment.
: There is no doubt that Windows isn't ready for high-end applications (
: you don't see a bank keeping its customer account info on a Windows
: box, or an airline keeps its ticket reservation system on a Windows
: box). But you would be blind if you didn't see that Windows has come
: a long way from its Win 1.0 days of the 1980s). It is probably fair
: to see that during the same period of time, Unix hasn't done nearly
: as much for its users.
: Does the fact Windows sucks to be a server indicate that Windows
: is an inferior product? yes, if you also agree that Linux is
: inferior because it sucks (big time) as a desktop environment, or
: your Focus sucks because it cannot tow 50 passengers.
: Each product has its intended market niche where it is competitive.
: outside of that niche, it will have a harder time to survive.


--
"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 209.138.23.12]
发信人: qili (qili), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Mon Sep  4 20:39:03 2000), 站内信件

【 在 ayanami (丑丑的甲亢) 的大作中提到: 】
: Let's just say WinNT which win2k is based on has a bad security model and
: an OS design to start with. I would have to say that it was not designed for
: enterprise use from the beginning. You can't just improvise to get it better.
: It can never achieve the line that is beyond its league.

My knowledge on security / OS is very limited so please let me focus
on a lesser issue: revolution vs. evolution of OS.

If the NT/W2k security model is just foundamentally flawed, Microsoft
cannot improve it beyond what the framework allows. We are talking
about evolution here.

The same thing applies to any products, Unix included. I'm
sure that from today's security point of view, the original
Unix (on that PDP11) has many aspects that are just as foundamentally
flawed. Over the years, it evolves and revolves into today's
Unix varieties. You can say the same about Linux as well.

Can Microsoft do the same thing with Windows? Take a look at Win3.1
which is basically a GUI on top of DOS. Comparing to that, Win95/WinNT
is truly a revolutionary advance.

As a product progresses with our understanding of what we need, it
indeed can go over that "magic line", IF we do the right thing.

--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 63.210.220.88]
发信人: microbe (奇妙的微生物), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Tue Sep  5 00:24:23 2000), 站内信件


IMHO, Windows sucks because it's incompatible (in many ways) with the defacto
industry standard networking environment: Unix.  Unless you don't use Unix and
adopt an all-windows solution, you are in trouble if you mix them together in
one network (for instance, maintaining two sets of passwords: one for NT domain
and the other for NIS).

I personally like Unix because its easy remote management and complete network
solutions (NFS, AMD, NIS, DNS, Apache, SSH, Firewall, etc).  People are working
actively to make it better and better.  Many of the packages can be freely
accessed (with source code).  Unix kernel is small, simple, open and easy to
understand.  Trouble shooting is easy.  Text interface makes administration
automation very easy.  All these make Unix the favorate son of Sys Admins.

【 在 ayanami (丑丑的甲亢) 的大作中提到: 】
: Again my point, windows product sucks to be server, enterprise level.


--
我在门外坐了两天两夜,看着天空在不断的变化。
我才发现,虽然我到这里很久,却从来没有看清楚这片沙漠。

※ 修改:.microbe 于 Sep  5 00:30:22 修改本文.[FROM: 160.39.202.6]
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 160.39.202.6]
发信人: loggie (四真大螺 思故能忘 痛后能乐), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Tue Sep  5 01:49:27 2000), 转信

Yes, for sysadmins educated with Unix 101, *nix is still the best.

Windows family does evolute over years after years development efforts,
NT is designed with a totally different kernel with DOS, and now MSFT is
trying to go beyond NT kernel. Its GUI proved to be a tech success, its
supporting application buddles strategy proved to be a business sucess
(also infamous as monopoly thing :)). Given time as we eyed on *nix for
30 years, I would probably think MSFT would make Windows 2010 into
enterprise market.

Now seems to me Open Source is the last weapon those *nix giants used to
gain money while still take tech lead. :)

【 在 microbe (奇妙的微生物) 的大作中提到: 】
: IMHO, Windows sucks because it's incompatible (in many ways) with the defacto
: industry standard networking environment: Unix.  Unless you don't use Unix and
: adopt an all-windows solution, you are in trouble if you mix them together in
: one network (for instance, maintaining two sets of passwords: one for NT domain
: and the other for NIS).
: I personally like Unix because its easy remote management and complete network
: solutions (NFS, AMD, NIS, DNS, Apache, SSH, Firewall, etc).  People are working
: actively to make it better and better.  Many of the packages can be freely
: accessed (with source code).  Unix kernel is small, simple, open and easy to
: understand.  Trouble shooting is easy.  Text interface makes administration
: automation very easy.  All these make Unix the favorate son of Sys Admins.
: 【 在 ayanami (丑丑的甲亢) 的大作中提到: 】
: : Again my point, windows product sucks to be server, enterprise level.


--
休息是为了走更长远的路
郁闷是为了想更快乐的走

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 164.107.112.17]
发信人: ayanami (丑丑的甲亢), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Tue Sep  5 11:05:14 2000), 转信

Windows series, as we wll know, stole its GUI design from Apple. It is
anything but "tech success".

【 在 loggie (四真大螺 思故能忘 痛后能乐) 的大作中提到: 】
: Yes, for sysadmins educated with Unix 101, *nix is still the best.
: Windows family does evolute over years after years development efforts,
: NT is designed with a totally different kernel with DOS, and now MSFT is
: trying to go beyond NT kernel. Its GUI proved to be a tech success, its
: supporting application buddles strategy proved to be a business sucess
Application buddle is one thing. Since every company does that. Sun buddles
softwares on its solaris servers, BeOS buddles softwares on its Be Operating
system. But deliberately locking out competitor's product, that is MONOPOLY.
(the famous netscape case, and now the real player) I have nothing against
Microsoft if they dont deem to take over the "computing industry", wanting
everyone from a 10 month infant to a 70 years senior citizen to run winblowz,
everything from the sophisticated medical equipment to NASA's super computer
to run winblowz, I would't be so opposed to them. Everyone has a choice, and
we *LIKE* our choices.

: (also infamous as monopoly thing :)). Given time as we eyed on *nix for
: 30 years, I would probably think MSFT would make Windows 2010 into
: enterprise market.
Windows 2010 would be a piece of junk that has 1 trillion lines of code,
uses Pentium 20 with 1 terabytes RAM, so badly designed beyond your imagination.

: Now seems to me Open Source is the last weapon those *nix giants used to
: gain money while still take tech lead. :)
latest weapon, maybe, but never the "LAST".

: 【 在 microbe (奇妙的微生物) 的大作中提到: 】
: : IMHO, Windows sucks because it's incompatible (in many ways) with the defacto
: : industry standard networking environment: Unix.  Unless you don't use Unix and
: : adopt an all-windows solution, you are in trouble if you mix them together in
: : one network (for instance, maintaining two sets of passwords: one for NT domain
: : and the other for NIS).
: : I personally like Unix because its easy remote management and complete network
: : solutions (NFS, AMD, NIS, DNS, Apache, SSH, Firewall, etc).  People are working
: : actively to make it better and better.  Many of the packages can be freely
: : accessed (with source code).  Unix kernel is small, simple, open and easy to
: : understand.  Trouble shooting is easy.  Text interface makes administration
: : automation very easy.  All these make Unix the favorate son of Sys Admins.


--
"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 64.252.67.138]
发信人: magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Tue Sep  5 12:49:15 2000) WWW-POST

【 在 microbe (奇妙的微生物) 的大作中提到: 】
:
: IMHO, Windows sucks because it's incompatible (in many ways) with the defacto
: industry standard networking environment: Unix.  Unless you don't use Unix

Come on, that doesn't make a product suck.  Following the
same logic, doesn't
Linux suck because it's incompatible(in many ways) with the
defacto industry
standard desktop environment: Windows?  8-)

: adopt an all-windows solution, you are in trouble if you mix them together in
: one network (for instance, maintaining two sets of passwords: one for NT domain
: and the other for NIS).

Technically it is possible to synchronize the two passwords
automatically with
a little programming.  It has actually got even easier since
ScriptHost was
introduced in WinNT/W2K.  I myself actually wrote a rough
tool doing that
several years ago.

Anyhow, that's not the point we are trying to discuss here.
The point is,
does a new(relatively) product like Windows have to be
compatible with
the old de facto standard?  If it doesn't, does that make it
suck?  For
the sake of renovation, I would like to have a negative
answer, because,
just name one nightware: Java sucks!  You know why?  Because
it's incompatible
with  the defacto industry language standard: C++.


--
他号令便号令好了,又何必安静?

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 63.89.141.6]
发信人: magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Tue Sep  5 13:09:15 2000) WWW-POST

【 在 ayanami (丑丑的甲亢) 的大作中提到: 】
: Windows series, as we wll know, stole its GUI design from Apple. It is
: anything but "tech success".

OK, no hard feelings, but that's an old joke everybody
knows, because
Apple didn't invent GUI either.  Doug Engelbar invented it
at Stanford.
One decade later Xerox came up with the idea to built it
into their computer.
But you know why Xerox didn't become anything even close to
Microsoft or
Apple?  Because they were satisfied for merely having proved
it is usable
on computer, and thus amused themselves with that fact.
Then that's it.

So speaking of "tech success", again we have come to the
fundamental
difference between us regarding this matter.  What makes a
product a tech
success?  Doesn't the fact that a product enables millions
of people
to use computers without having to be a hacker make itself a
tech success?
I say yes.

: Application buddle is one thing. Since every company does that. Sun buddles
: softwares on its solaris servers, BeOS buddles softwares on its Be Operating
: system. But deliberately locking out competitor's product, that is MONOPOLY.
: (the famous netscape case, and now the real player) I have nothing against
: Microsoft if they dont deem to take over the "computing industry", wanting
: everyone from a 10 month infant to a 70 years senior citizen to run winblowz,
: everything from the sophisticated medical equipment to NASA's super computer
: to run winblowz, I would't be so opposed to them. Everyone has a choice, and
: we *LIKE* our choices.

It is perfectly fine for you to like YOUR choices.

--
他号令便号令好了,又何必安静?

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 63.89.141.6]
发信人: ayanami (丑丑的甲亢), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Tue Sep  5 15:36:22 2000), 转信

【 在 magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 ayanami (丑丑的甲亢) 的大作中提到: 】
: : Windows series, as we wll know, stole its GUI design from Apple. It is
: : anything but "tech success".
: OK, no hard feelings, but that's an old joke everybody
: knows, because
: Apple didn't invent GUI either.  Doug Engelbar invented it
: at Stanford.
: One decade later Xerox came up with the idea to built it
: into their computer.
: But you know why Xerox didn't become anything even close to
: Microsoft or
: Apple?  Because they were satisfied for merely having proved
: it is usable
: on computer, and thus amused themselves with that fact.
: Then that's it.
: So speaking of "tech success", again we have come to the
: fundamental
: difference between us regarding this matter.  What makes a
: product a tech
: success?  Doesn't the fact that a product enables millions
: of people
: to use computers without having to be a hacker make itself a
: tech success?
: I say yes.
: : Application buddle is one thing. Since every company does that. Sun buddles
: : softwares on its solaris servers, BeOS buddles softwares on its Be Operating
: : system. But deliberately locking out competitor's product, that is MONOPOLY.
: : (the famous netscape case, and now the real player) I have nothing against
: : Microsoft if they dont deem to take over the "computing industry", wanting
: : everyone from a 10 month infant to a 70 years senior citizen to run winblowz,
: : everything from the sophisticated medical equipment to NASA's super computer
: : to run winblowz, I would't be so opposed to them. Everyone has a choice, and
: : we *LIKE* our choices.
: It is perfectly fine for you to like YOUR choices.
Look at my signature, you will notice that microsoft doesn't like my choices,
nor do they want me to have my choices.

--
"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 64.252.67.138]
发信人: loggie (四真大螺 饭吃三碗 倒头能着), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Tue Sep  5 16:10:52 2000), 站内信件

【 在 ayanami (丑丑的甲亢) 的大作中提到: 】
: Windows series, as we wll know, stole its GUI design from Apple. It is
: anything but "tech success".

How can you explain Apple "borrowed" the GUI ideas from PARC, and Redhat/Gnome
"simulated" Win95 design?

: 【 在 loggie (四真大螺 思故能忘 痛后能乐) 的大作中提到: 】
: : Yes, for sysadmins educated with Unix 101, *nix is still the best.
: : Windows family does evolute over years after years development efforts,
: : NT is designed with a totally different kernel with DOS, and now MSFT is
: : trying to go beyond NT kernel. Its GUI proved to be a tech success, its
: : supporting application buddles strategy proved to be a business sucess
: Application buddle is one thing. Since every company does that. Sun buddles
: softwares on its solaris servers, BeOS buddles softwares on its Be Operating
: system. But deliberately locking out competitor's product, that is MONOPOLY.
: (the famous netscape case, and now the real player) I have nothing against
: Microsoft if they dont deem to take over the "computing industry", wanting
: everyone from a 10 month infant to a 70 years senior citizen to run winblowz,
: everything from the sophisticated medical equipment to NASA's super computer
: to run winblowz, I would't be so opposed to them. Everyone has a choice, and
: we *LIKE* our choices.

Yes, everyone has his/her choices. The thing is, bad business practice should
not necessarily lead to the conclusion that bad tech or inferior tech/business
strategy. MSFT is being punished for its bad behavior, but it cannot be used
as the excuse for ppl blaming it as the evil thing. :-D

: : (also infamous as monopoly thing :)). Given time as we eyed on *nix for
: : 30 years, I would probably think MSFT would make Windows 2010 into
: : enterprise market.
: Windows 2010 would be a piece of junk that has 1 trillion lines of code,
: uses Pentium 20 with 1 terabytes RAM, so badly designed beyond your imagination.

I am not so good at predicting the computing future, but I would say the
hardware advance means we can spend more time on the software features, not
on playing memory tricks to save memo space or reduce CPU utilization.

: : Now seems to me Open Source is the last weapon those *nix giants used to
: : gain money while still take tech lead. :)
: latest weapon, maybe, but never the "LAST".

Having dominated enterprise server market for nearly two decades, *nix should
at least find new rivals to play fair. Once upon a time, *nix was playing as
terminator for those System 360 or VMS oldies, now it's time for it to have
good rivals. I dunno if Windows is a final solution, but it looks like a
very strong candidate so far. The line here is, if Linux still works in
the *nix track, it will have to be terminated as other *nix.

--
三bedroom, 一bimmer, 老婆孩子热炕头 - 新农民梦想 :)

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 164.107.112.10]
发信人: ayanami (丑丑的甲亢), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Tue Sep  5 16:18:21 2000), 转信

【 在 loggie (四真大螺 饭吃三碗 倒头能着) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 ayanami (丑丑的甲亢) 的大作中提到: 】
: : Windows series, as we wll know, stole its GUI design from Apple. It is
: : anything but "tech success".
: How can you explain Apple "borrowed" the GUI ideas from PARC, and Redhat/Gnome
: "simulated" Win95 design?
The fact apple borrowed GUI , and Gnome is a windows ripoff doesn't disprove
the fact that Windows's GUI is NOT a tech success.
I never claimed GNOME's GUI desktop interface is a "tech success".

: : Application buddle is one thing. Since every company does that. Sun buddles
: : softwares on its solaris servers, BeOS buddles softwares on its Be Operating
: : system. But deliberately locking out competitor's product, that is MONOPOLY.
: : (the famous netscape case, and now the real player) I have nothing against
: : Microsoft if they dont deem to take over the "computing industry", wanting
: : everyone from a 10 month infant to a 70 years senior citizen to run winblowz,
: : everything from the sophisticated medical equipment to NASA's super computer
: : to run winblowz, I would't be so opposed to them. Everyone has a choice, and
: : we *LIKE* our choices.
: Yes, everyone has his/her choices. The thing is, bad business practice should
: not necessarily lead to the conclusion that bad tech or inferior tech/business
: strategy. MSFT is being punished for its bad behavior, but it cannot be used
: as the excuse for ppl blaming it as the evil thing. :-D
: : Windows 2010 would be a piece of junk that has 1 trillion lines of code,
: : uses Pentium 20 with 1 terabytes RAM, so badly designed beyond your imagination.
: I am not so good at predicting the computing future, but I would say the
: hardware advance means we can spend more time on the software features, not
: on playing memory tricks to save memo space or reduce CPU utilization.
: : latest weapon, maybe, but never the "LAST".
: Having dominated enterprise server market for nearly two decades, *nix should
: at least find new rivals to play fair. Once upon a time, *nix was playing as
: terminator for those System 360 or VMS oldies, now it's time for it to have
: good rivals. I dunno if Windows is a final solution, but it looks like a
: very strong candidate so far. The line here is, if Linux still works in
: the *nix track, it will have to be terminated as other *nix.


--
"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 64.252.67.138]
发信人: ollie (网小波), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Tue Sep  5 17:51:59 2000), 站内信件

【 在 ayanami (丑丑的甲亢) 的大作中提到: 】
: Windows 2010 would be a piece of junk that has 1 trillion lines of code,
: uses Pentium 20 with 1 terabytes RAM, so badly designed beyond your imaginat

i don't really like MS, but this kind of words sound like pure bias. how could
you know what win2010 will be like? will you say that redhat 2010 still doesn't
support a whole bunch of hardwares? be fair in discussion.

--
Work like you don't need the money
Love like you've never been hurt
Dance like nobody's watching

※ 修改:.ollie 于 Sep  5 17:52:32 修改本文.[FROM: 128.101.170.129]
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 128.101.170.129]
发信人: ayanami (丑丑的甲亢), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Tue Sep  5 18:01:02 2000), 转信

that is the conclusion I got from the development curve from windows 3.1 ->
windows 95 > windows NT, windows 98 -> windows 2000, ME
Maybe microsoft will come up with something completely new, but then again,
microsoft is not a company you would expect serious "innovation" and "invention"
from, or it wouldn't be called a "monopoly".
Let's just hope there isn't a windows 2002. Computer technology should evolve
into a much better stage 2 years later.

【 在 ollie (网小波) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 ayanami (丑丑的甲亢) 的大作中提到: 】
: : Windows 2010 would be a piece of junk that has 1 trillion lines of code,
: : uses Pentium 20 with 1 terabytes RAM, so badly designed beyond your imaginat
: i don't really like MS, but this kind of words sound like pure bias. how could
: you know what win2010 will be like? will you say that redhat 2010 still doesn't
: support a whole bunch of hardwares? be fair in discussion.


--
"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 64.252.67.138]
发信人: magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Tue Sep  5 22:46:34 2000) WWW-POST

【 在 ayanami (丑丑的甲亢) 的大作中提到: 】
: that is the conclusion I got from the development curve from windows 3.1 ->
: windows 95 > windows NT, windows 98 -> windows 2000, ME

That could be the conclusion(excluding part of it led to by
your emotional
bias) you can get from almost any serious software.  Look at
Java.  Look at
what it used to be when it was introduced and what it is
like today.  If you
need more functionalities, you'll have to come up with a
larger piece of
software.

: Maybe microsoft will come up with something completely new, but then again,
: microsoft is not a company you would expect serious "innovation" and "invention"
: from, or it wouldn't be called a "monopoly".

I believe today everybody agrees that the IT industry has
undergone a lot
of innovations during the past dacade.  Innovations and
inventions lead us
thru the PC Era and get to this Internet Era.  Who started
the PC Era?
Apple.  Who led it?  Wintel.  You really believe the Empire
didn't contribute
anything positive?  Well then how did they build the two
Death Stars?  8-)
(OK don't tell me any crap like Rebels finally blew up them,
that was just
Mr. Lucas wanted to make everybody feel happy, we all know
the power of
the dark side. 8-)


--
他号令便号令好了,又何必安静?

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: ]
发信人: microbe (奇妙的微生物), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Sep  6 02:53:24 2000), 站内信件

【 在 magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 microbe (奇妙的微生物) 的大作中提到: 】
: : IMHO, Windows sucks because it's incompatible (in many ways) with the defacto
: : industry standard networking environment: Unix.  Unless you don't use Unix
: Come on, that doesn't make a product suck.  Following the
: same logic, doesn't
: Linux suck because it's incompatible(in many ways) with the
: defacto industry
: standard desktop environment: Windows?  8-)

Come on, there is no point discussing "compatibility" about desktops.
They won't change others' behavior.

Hey, Linux/Unix guys are trying hard to be compatible with MSFT products,
look at Samba!  But what's MSFT's attitude?  They are always inventing their
own protocols, and making others' life tougher unless you don't use non-windows
products.  Yes, they have always been doing so.

: : adopt an all-windows solution, you are in trouble if you mix them together in
: : one network (for instance, maintaining two sets of passwords: one for NT domain
: : and the other for NIS).
: Technically it is possible to synchronize the two passwords
: automatically with
: a little programming.  It has actually got even easier since
: ScriptHost was
: introduced in WinNT/W2K.  I myself actually wrote a rough
: tool doing that
: several years ago.

Oh really?  But how would the passwords be stored?  Plain-text?

: Anyhow, that's not the point we are trying to discuss here.
: The point is,
: does a new(relatively) product like Windows have to be
: compatible with
: the old de facto standard?  If it doesn't, does that make it
: suck? 

I've made my points very clear.  They just want to discard all others
once they get the chance (and more importantly, power).  They want to
dominate the industry at their will.  It's not just "renovation", it's
"ambition".

: For
: the sake of renovation, I would like to have a negative
: answer, because,
: just name one nightware: Java sucks!  You know why?  Because
: it's incompatible
: with  the defacto industry language standard: C++.


--
我在门外坐了两天两夜,看着天空在不断的变化。
我才发现,虽然我到这里很久,却从来没有看清楚这片沙漠。

※ 修改:.microbe 于 Sep  6 02:55:32 修改本文.[FROM: 160.39.202.6]
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 160.39.202.6]
发信人: microbe (奇妙的微生物), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Sep  6 02:58:45 2000), 站内信件


Well, I don't care about "innovation".  But I do care about "compatibility"
with the standard.  Linux is great because it's POSIX complaint.  Windows
is still great even it steals, but please don't break things.

【 在 ayanami (丑丑的甲亢) 的大作中提到: 】
: that is the conclusion I got from the development curve from windows 3.1 ->
: windows 95 > windows NT, windows 98 -> windows 2000, ME
: Maybe microsoft will come up with something completely new, but then again,
: microsoft is not a company you would expect serious "innovation" and "invention"
: from, or it wouldn't be called a "monopoly".
: Let's just hope there isn't a windows 2002. Computer technology should evolve
: into a much better stage 2 years later.
: 【 在 ollie (网小波) 的大作中提到: 】
: : i don't really like MS, but this kind of words sound like pure bias. how could
: : you know what win2010 will be like? will you say that redhat 2010 still doesn't
: : support a whole bunch of hardwares? be fair in discussion.


--
我在门外坐了两天两夜,看着天空在不断的变化。
我才发现,虽然我到这里很久,却从来没有看清楚这片沙漠。

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 160.39.202.6]
发信人: magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Sep  6 10:18:51 2000) WWW-POST

【 在 microbe (奇妙的微生物) 的大作中提到: 】
:
: Come on, there is no point discussing "compatibility" about desktops.
: They won't change others' behavior.

Even compatibility about desktops does matter, otherwise who
are peole (including you and me) so concerned about
Microsoft's abusing its
monopoly power to grab market beyond desktop?

But, as Lord Vader said, "As you wish, my master..."
let's talk about "compatibility" of UNIX.  Following your
same logic,
UNIX used to suck, because it was incompatible with
OS-360/390, which was
the de facto standard when UNIX was born.(Don't tell me
people were not
connecting to each other before UNIX)

All right?  the point I'm trying to make is, incompatibility
doesn't make
a product suck.  Without incompatibility, we would have lost
most of the
innovations we have had.

: : Technically it is possible to synchronize the two passwords
: : automatically with
: : a little programming.  It has actually got even easier since
: : ScriptHost was
: : introduced in WinNT/W2K.  I myself actually wrote a rough
: : tool doing that
: : several years ago.
:
: Oh really?  But how would the passwords be stored?  Plain-text?

NIS has api to fetch and store passwords, so does Win32.
All passwords
can be stored in where they are supposed to be, on both
sides.

: I've made my points very clear.  They just want to discard all others
: once they get the chance (and more importantly, power).  They want to
: dominate the industry at their will.  It's not just "renovation", it's
: "ambition".

Hasn't Linux been trying to be the "Windows Killer" all the
time?
Hasn't Sun been trying to kill Microsoft with Java by making
Java
"not only a language, but also a platform"?
I don't see anything wrong with ambition itself.  Without
ambition,
where comes renovation?

I do agree, though, some actions Microsoft has been taking
to realize
its goal are debatable.  Those can be the evidence that
Microsoft
has abused its monopoly power.  However, they don't
automatically make
Microsoft's product suck, which is the topic we been
discussing in this
thread.

--
他号令便号令好了,又何必安静?

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 63.89.141.6]
发信人: magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Sep  6 10:26:27 2000) WWW-POST

【 在 microbe (奇妙的微生物) 的大作中提到: 】
:
: Well, I don't care about "innovation".  But I do care about "compatibility"
: with the standard.  Linux is great because it's POSIX complaint.  Windows
: is still great even it steals, but please don't break things.

Linux(by Implementation 2.1) is only POSIX1 compliant, does
that make you
feel worse?

NT(since 3.51) is also POSIX1 compliant, does that make you
feel better?

--
他号令便号令好了,又何必安静?

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 63.89.141.6]
发信人: ayanami (丑丑的甲亢), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Sep  6 10:48:48 2000), 转信

Hardly anything on LInux is not standard, hardly anything on windows is standard.
What microsoft wants to do is to control the whole computing industry, not
by its product's superiority, but by its marketting scheme. And, IMHO, we hardly
see any innovations or inventions rather than craps coming out of Redmond.
Fortunately, because of Linux and other wonderful OSS, we dont have to give in
to the Microsoft collective.

【 在 magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 microbe (奇妙的微生物) 的大作中提到: 】
: : Well, I don't care about "innovation".  But I do care about "compatibility"
: : with the standard.  Linux is great because it's POSIX complaint.  Windows
: : is still great even it steals, but please don't break things.
: Linux(by Implementation 2.1) is only POSIX1 compliant, does
: that make you
: feel worse?
: NT(since 3.51) is also POSIX1 compliant, does that make you
: feel better?


--
"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 64.252.67.138]
发信人: magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Sep  6 11:41:58 2000) WWW-POST


Well, I was merely stating some facts regarding
the compatibility issues Gen. Microbe was concerned
about and made his point based on.  If you have
facts to counterattack mine, put them on the table.
Simply repeating some emotional and premature assertions
doesn't help clarify things in our discussion.
8-)

"Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to
suffering.  I sense much fear in you." -- Yoda

【 在 ayanami (丑丑的甲亢) 的大作中提到: 】
: Hardly anything on LInux is not standard, hardly anything on windows is standard.
: What microsoft wants to do is to control the whole computing industry, not
: by its product's superiority, but by its marketting scheme. And, IMHO, we hardly
: see any innovations or inventions rather than craps coming out of Redmond.
: Fortunately, because of Linux and other wonderful OSS, we dont have to give in
: to the Microsoft collective.



--
他号令便号令好了,又何必安静?

※ 修改:·magicfat 於 Sep  6 11:41:58 修改本文·[FROM: 63.89.141.6]
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 63.89.141.6]
发信人: microbe (奇妙的微生物), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Sep  6 12:01:08 2000), 站内信件

【 在 magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 microbe (奇妙的微生物) 的大作中提到: 】
: : Come on, there is no point discussing "compatibility" about desktops.
: : They won't change others' behavior.
: Even compatibility about desktops does matter, otherwise who
: are peole (including you and me) so concerned about
: Microsoft's abusing its
: monopoly power to grab market beyond desktop?

Most of these concerns come from servers, not clients.  More accurately,
protocols and standards (or non-standards), with Microsoft's flavor.

: But, as Lord Vader said, "As you wish, my master..."
: let's talk about "compatibility" of UNIX.  Following your
: same logic,
: UNIX used to suck, because it was incompatible with
: OS-360/390, which was
: the de facto standard when UNIX was born.(Don't tell me
: people were not
: connecting to each other before UNIX)
: All right?  the point I'm trying to make is, incompatibility
: doesn't make
: a product suck.  Without incompatibility, we would have lost
: most of the
: innovations we have had.

Well, we need standards from neutral orginizations, but better not
from a company whose primary concern is making profit and dominating
the market.  Microsoft is using its power to change the standards.
This is the point.  It's very dangerous to have one big company
control the industrial standards.  It's not the case for Unix.

: : Oh really?  But how would the passwords be stored?  Plain-text?
: NIS has api to fetch and store passwords, so does Win32.
: All passwords
: can be stored in where they are supposed to be, on both
: sides.

Unix hashes and NT hashes are simply not convertable.  You have to
use the plain text to make them work together.

: : I've made my points very clear.  They just want to discard all others
: : once they get the chance (and more importantly, power).  They want to
: : dominate the industry at their will.  It's not just "renovation", it's
: : "ambition".
: Hasn't Linux been trying to be the "Windows Killer" all the
: time?
: Hasn't Sun been trying to kill Microsoft with Java by making
: Java
: "not only a language, but also a platform"?
: I don't see anything wrong with ambition itself.  Without
: ambition,
: where comes renovation?
: I do agree, though, some actions Microsoft has been taking
: to realize
: its goal are debatable.  Those can be the evidence that
: Microsoft
: has abused its monopoly power.  However, they don't
: automatically make
: Microsoft's product suck, which is the topic we been
: discussing in this
: thread.


--
我在门外坐了两天两夜,看着天空在不断的变化。
我才发现,虽然我到这里很久,却从来没有看清楚这片沙漠。

※ 修改:.microbe 于 Sep  6 12:03:25 修改本文.[FROM: 128.59.20.139]
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 128.59.20.139]
发信人: magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Sep  6 14:20:54 2000) WWW-POST

【 在 microbe (奇妙的微生物) 的大作中提到: 】
:
: Most of these concerns come from servers, not clients.  More accurately,
: protocols and standards (or non-standards), with Microsoft's flavor.

Oh?  One moment people start laughing at Microsoft's server products
on how sucky they are.  Next moment they start battering Microsoft for
it messing around this nice world with its so "inferior" and "sucky"
*server* products?  Come on, show me some *real* threats instead of that,
UNIX!

: Well, we need standards from neutral orginizations, but better not
: from a company whose primary concern is making profit and dominating
: the market.  Microsoft is using its power to change the standards.
: This is the point.  It's very dangerous to have one big company
: control the industrial standards.  It's not the case for Unix.

If you look back into the history of this industry, most of the innovations
were brought up by companies "whose primary concern is making profit and dominating the market".  Just to name a few, IBM, Microsoft, Sun, etc.
Most of those new technologies made it to some standards
set by a neutral and non-profit orgniation only after having
become the de facto standard.

: Unix hashes and NT hashes are simply not convertable.  You have to
: use the plain text to make them work together.

The transmission of passwords is of course encrypted.  You are not
too paranoid to afford having a piece of plain text password in your
memory for a second, are you?  8-)


--
他号令便号令好了,又何必安静?

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 63.89.141.6]
发信人: ayanami (丑丑的甲亢), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Sep  6 14:42:20 2000), 转信

【 在 magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 microbe (奇妙的微生物) 的大作中提到: 】
: :
: : Most of these concerns come from servers, not clients.  More accurately,
: : protocols and standards (or non-standards), with Microsoft's flavor.
:
: Oh?  One moment people start laughing at Microsoft's server products
: on how sucky they are.  Next moment they start battering Microsoft for
: it messing around this nice world with its so "inferior" and "sucky"
: *server* products?  Come on, show me some *real* threats instead of that,
: UNIX!
:
I dont understand your logic. Microsoft's Server is inferior in terms of
technology ===> it messes up the existing "nice world". I dont see
anything wrong with it.

: : Well, we need standards from neutral orginizations, but better not
: : from a company whose primary concern is making profit and dominating
: : the market.  Microsoft is using its power to change the standards.
: : This is the point.  It's very dangerous to have one big company
: : control the industrial standards.  It's not the case for Unix.
:
: If you look back into the history of this industry, most of the innovations
: were brought up by companies "whose primary concern is making profit and dominating the market".  Just to name a few, IBM, Microsoft, Sun, etc.
: Most of those new technologies made it to some standards
: set by a neutral and non-profit orgniation only after having
: become the de facto standard.
Such as java. right.. but they dont make it deliberately benificial to their
own products and at the same time, damages other competitor's products. (or
potential competitor), and at the same time, lower the quality of the products.

:
: : Unix hashes and NT hashes are simply not convertable.  You have to
: : use the plain text to make them work together.
:
: The transmission of passwords is of course encrypted.  You are not
: too paranoid to afford having a piece of plain text password in your
: memory for a second, are you?  8-)
:


--
"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 64.252.67.138]
发信人: magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Sep  6 16:07:18 2000) WWW-POST

【 在 ayanami (丑丑的甲亢) 的大作中提到: 】
: I dont understand your logic. Microsoft's Server is inferior in terms of
: technology ===> it messes up the existing "nice world". I dont see
: anything wrong with it.

Microbe was saying the current major concerns about Microsoft's
"threats" to the world were from the server side, rather than the client
side.  I was asking, if NT etc. is really so inferior, market simply won't
buy it.  Meanwhile, the client side doesn't matter.  Well then why are
people so concerned?

: Such as java. right.. but they dont make it deliberately benificial to their
: own products and at the same time, damages other competitor's products. (or
: potential competitor), and at the same time, lower the quality of the
products.

Sun didn't make Java to "deliberately benefit" its own
products?  I don't buy it.  If you do, how would you explain Sun never
wants to release Java to a non-profit standardization org?  And would you
agree that, if Java does grab the market(both server and client, we know
Sun means it) from Microsoft, it is Sun's products, especially
the hardware platforms+OS bundle, that will be benefited the most?

Second, wouldn't you agree that the emerging of Java has already "damaged
other competitor's products" which are C++ based?

Third, I've been tracking Microsoft products for the entire past decade.
The quality of these products has been improved over generations of those
products.  Just name one example, how would you compare the quality of
NT 3.51 and NT 4?  How about from NT 4 to W2K?

--
他号令便号令好了,又何必安静?

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 63.89.141.6]
发信人: ayanami (丑丑的甲亢), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Sep  6 17:39:15 2000) WWW-POST

【 在 magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 ayanami (丑丑的甲亢) 的大作中提到: 】
: : I dont understand your logic. Microsoft's Server is inferior in terms of
: : technology ===> it messes up the existing "nice world". I dont see
: : anything wrong with it.
:
: Microbe was saying the current major concerns about Microsoft's
: "threats" to the world were from the server side, rather than the client
: side.  I was asking, if NT etc. is really so inferior, market simply won't
: buy it.  Meanwhile, the client side doesn't matter.  Well then why are
: people so concerned?
The marketting! The marketting!
Microsoft makes you understand the power of marketting,
besides, NT is very easy to use. It doesn't have the none of
the technology advancement, but it has the easiness for
operating. That gets it into the server market. 

: : Such as java. right.. but they dont make it deliberately benificial to their
: : own products and at the same time, damages other competitor's products. (or
: : potential competitor), and at the same time, lower the quality of the
: products.
:
: Sun didn't make Java to "deliberately benefit" its own
: products?  I don't buy it.  If you do, how would you explain Sun never
: wants to release Java to a non-profit standardization org?  And would you
: agree that, if Java does grab the market(both server and client, we know
: Sun means it) from Microsoft, it is Sun's products, especially
: the hardware platforms+OS bundle, that will be benefited the most?
For your information, Java(2) is Open Source, and it is very
compatible with lots of other Open standard in a way that if
that side of the technology is developed, it will be all fit
in, inlike microsoft's stuff that always gives you some
trouble here and there...


: Second, wouldn't you agree that the emerging of Java has already "damaged
: other competitor's products" which are C++ based?
:
Now, tell me, whose product C++ is? Give me some examples of
"other competitors" who gets hurt in java technology
development.


: Third, I've been tracking Microsoft products for the entire past decade.
: The quality of these products has been improved over generations of those
: products.  Just name one example, how would you compare the quality of
: NT 3.51 and NT 4?  How about from NT 4 to W2K?
geez, of course the quality improves. If they are half-dead
chimpanzees, they would be able to make better bananas over
a decade. But that doesn't mean their product is good, or
their "evil scheme to take over the computing industry by
their aweful product" is good either.




--
"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 138.67.252.64.s]
发信人: microbe (奇妙的微生物), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Sep  6 20:37:59 2000), 站内信件

【 在 magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 microbe (奇妙的微生物) 的大作中提到: 】
: If you look back into the history of this industry, most of the innovations
: were brought up by companies "whose primary concern is making profit and dominating the market".  Just to name a few, IBM, Microsoft, Sun, etc.
: Most of those new technologies made it to some standards
: set by a neutral and non-profit orgniation only after having
: become the de facto standard.

If they invented it, OK.  Sun invented NFS and NIS, that was great.  But MSFT
seldom invents things.  They start from others' ideas and use its power to
change it to fit its own needs.  This sucks, and makes others' life tough.

: : Unix hashes and NT hashes are simply not convertable.  You have to
: : use the plain text to make them work together.
:
: The transmission of passwords is of course encrypted.  You are not
: too paranoid to afford having a piece of plain text password in your
: memory for a second, are you?  8-)

I mean the passwords on disk.  It has to be plain text if you want to
generate both hashes from it.

--
我在门外坐了两天两夜,看着天空在不断的变化。
我才发现,虽然我到这里很久,却从来没有看清楚这片沙漠。

※ 修改:.microbe 于 Sep  6 20:46:28 修改本文.[FROM: 160.39.202.6]
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 160.39.202.6]
发信人: microbe (奇妙的微生物), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Sep  6 20:39:28 2000), 站内信件

【 在 magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 ayanami (丑丑的甲亢) 的大作中提到: 】
: : I dont understand your logic. Microsoft's Server is inferior in terms of
: : technology ===> it messes up the existing "nice world". I dont see
: : anything wrong with it.
:
: Microbe was saying the current major concerns about Microsoft's
: "threats" to the world were from the server side, rather than the client
: side.  I was asking, if NT etc. is really so inferior, market simply won't
: buy it.  Meanwhile, the client side doesn't matter.  Well then why are
: people so concerned?

Man, technical successs != market success.  I assume this is very clear
as we discuss MSFT.

:
: : Such as java. right.. but they dont make it deliberately benificial to their
: : own products and at the same time, damages other competitor's products. (or
: : potential competitor), and at the same time, lower the quality of the
: products.
:
: Sun didn't make Java to "deliberately benefit" its own
: products?  I don't buy it.  If you do, how would you explain Sun never
: wants to release Java to a non-profit standardization org?  And would you
: agree that, if Java does grab the market(both server and client, we know
: Sun means it) from Microsoft, it is Sun's products, especially
: the hardware platforms+OS bundle, that will be benefited the most?
:
: Second, wouldn't you agree that the emerging of Java has already "damaged
: other competitor's products" which are C++ based?
:
: Third, I've been tracking Microsoft products for the entire past decade.
: The quality of these products has been improved over generations of those
: products.  Just name one example, how would you compare the quality of
: NT 3.51 and NT 4?  How about from NT 4 to W2K?


--
我在门外坐了两天两夜,看着天空在不断的变化。
我才发现,虽然我到这里很久,却从来没有看清楚这片沙漠。

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 160.39.202.6]
发信人: qili (qili), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Sep  6 21:10:19 2000), 站内信件

【 在 ayanami (丑丑的甲亢) 的大作中提到: 】
: besides, NT is very easy to use. It doesn't have the none of
: the technology advancement, but it has the easiness for
: operating. That gets it into the server market. 

correct me if I am wrong. I remember reading an interview
of an ex-DEC guy who had a look at NT4.0, and was surprised
that it looks like carbon copy of an DEC Unix-variant. It
is also reported on the net that NT has a fair good Unix-like
kernel. so from that perspective, there really isn't much
foundamental difference between NT and Unix, except that
Microsoft popularized Unix (under the disguise of NT/Windows).

--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 209.246.93.156]
发信人: qili (qili), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Sep  6 21:14:22 2000), 站内信件

【 在 microbe (奇妙的微生物) 的大作中提到: 】
: Man, technical successs != market success.  I assume this is very clear
: as we discuss MSFT.

which one do you rather have? a great technology that no one uses, or
a mediocre technology that everyone loves to use?

A company exists to maximize profits for its shareholders. Technology
is the means (one of many means) to achieve that, not the goal.

Microsoft happens to have a complete package (OK technology, smart
marketing, and dedication to user needs, among others) that made
it a winner.

Unix may be a superior product. But if those guys remain as arrogant,
and ignorant of the market, they are doomed to fail.

--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 209.246.93.156]
发信人: ayanami (丑丑的甲亢), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Sep  6 21:34:02 2000), 转信

1: NT's designer was a VMS guy.

2: the ex-DEC guy must have been looking NT kernel's hex code. NT4, has a
microkernel which IMO, is better than LInux's monolithic kernel. It is
the stuff that adds on the kernel that is messy and screws everything up.



【 在 qili (qili) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 ayanami (丑丑的甲亢) 的大作中提到: 】
: : besides, NT is very easy to use. It doesn't have the none of
: : the technology advancement, but it has the easiness for
: : operating. That gets it into the server market. 
: correct me if I am wrong. I remember reading an interview
: of an ex-DEC guy who had a look at NT4.0, and was surprised
: that it looks like carbon copy of an DEC Unix-variant. It
: is also reported on the net that NT has a fair good Unix-like
: kernel. so from that perspective, there really isn't much
: foundamental difference between NT and Unix, except that
: Microsoft popularized Unix (under the disguise of NT/Windows).


--
"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 209.138.22.203]
发信人: ayanami (丑丑的甲亢), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Sep  6 21:36:06 2000), 转信

【 在 qili (qili) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 microbe (奇妙的微生物) 的大作中提到: 】
: : Man, technical successs != market success.  I assume this is very clear
: : as we discuss MSFT.
: which one do you rather have? a great technology that no one uses, or
: a mediocre technology that everyone loves to use?
: A company exists to maximize profits for its shareholders. Technology
: is the means (one of many means) to achieve that, not the goal.
: Microsoft happens to have a complete package (OK technology, smart
: marketing, and dedication to user needs, among others) that made
: it a winner.
: Unix may be a superior product. But if those guys remain as arrogant,
: and ignorant of the market, they are doomed to fail.
UNIX is no the samething even 5 years ago. I sugest you instal the latest
, say , mandrake 7.2 to see how bleeding edge it is.

--
"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 209.138.22.203]
发信人: loggie (四真大螺 饭吃三碗 倒头能着), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Sep  6 22:07:38 2000), 站内信件

【 在 microbe (奇妙的微生物) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地) 的大作中提到: 】
: : If you look back into the history of this industry, most of the innovations
: : were brought up by companies "whose primary concern is making profit and dominating the market".  Just to name a few, IBM, Microsoft, Sun, etc.
: : Most of those new technologies made it to some standards
: : set by a neutral and non-profit orgniation only after having
: : become the de facto standard.
: If they invented it, OK.  Sun invented NFS and NIS, that was great.  But MSFT
: seldom invents things.  They start from others' ideas and use its power to
: change it to fit its own needs.  This sucks, and makes others' life tough.

I guess every firm in the industry doing the same thing. When 3com was still
as a start-up, Sun copied the design of 1st generation of ethernet and tried
to sell it more with their then "workstations". So did Solaris and later
Soltice. Can you claim how much in Java is invented by SUNW?

MSFT also invented things beyond our windows sights, like DHCP, like CHAP.
Its market oriented strategy decides that it won't bet on new tech, but
take advantage of existing tech, and, improved it with its own features.
However, sometimes it abused its domniant market position. This needs to
be punished.

I won't say MSFT isnot a sucker at all. But it did quite a good job in
making computing as daily as driving. Benz invented the car, but Yankees
just think Ford is greater because his T was affordable.

: : The transmission of passwords is of course encrypted.  You are not
: : too paranoid to afford having a piece of plain text password in your
: : memory for a second, are you?  8-)
: I mean the passwords on disk.  It has to be plain text if you want to
: generate both hashes from it.


--
厚积薄发, 秉诚度世

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 171.71.138.217]
发信人: qili (qili), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Sep  6 22:10:45 2000), 站内信件

【 在 ayanami (丑丑的甲亢) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 qili (qili) 的大作中提到: 】
: : which one do you rather have? a great technology that no one uses, or
: : a mediocre technology that everyone loves to use?
: : A company exists to maximize profits for its shareholders. Technology
: : is the means (one of many means) to achieve that, not the goal.
: : Microsoft happens to have a complete package (OK technology, smart
: : marketing, and dedication to user needs, among others) that made
: : it a winner.
: : Unix may be a superior product. But if those guys remain as arrogant,
: : and ignorant of the market, they are doomed to fail.
: UNIX is no the samething even 5 years ago. I sugest you instal the latest
: , say , mandrake 7.2 to see how bleeding edge it is.

I am sure you are right about Mandrake 7.2 (tho. it sure wasn't the
case for Mandrake 6.0 which I run now).

The point isn't how long a way Linux/Unix has come. It is how INFERIOR
they are to Windows in user friendliness, and marketability.

The millions of Windows users aren't fools. At least not all of them.

--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 129.79.6.178]
发信人: loggie (四真大螺 饭吃三碗 倒头能着), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Sep  6 22:18:37 2000), 站内信件

the chief architect of NT was once the chief designer of DEC VMS.

i will guess there are much difference between Dec Ultrix and Windows NT
since their kernels are quite different.

【 在 qili (qili) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 ayanami (丑丑的甲亢) 的大作中提到: 】
: : besides, NT is very easy to use. It doesn't have the none of
: : the technology advancement, but it has the easiness for
: : operating. That gets it into the server market. 
: correct me if I am wrong. I remember reading an interview
: of an ex-DEC guy who had a look at NT4.0, and was surprised
: that it looks like carbon copy of an DEC Unix-variant. It
: is also reported on the net that NT has a fair good Unix-like
: kernel. so from that perspective, there really isn't much
: foundamental difference between NT and Unix, except that
: Microsoft popularized Unix (under the disguise of NT/Windows).


--
厚积薄发, 秉诚度世

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 171.71.138.217]
发信人: magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Sep  6 23:56:22 2000) WWW-POST

【 在 ayanami (丑丑的甲亢) 的大作中提到: 】
: :
: : Microbe was saying the current major concerns about Microsoft's
: : "threats" to the world were from the server side, rather than the client
: : side.  I was asking, if NT etc. is really so inferior, market simply won't
: : buy it.  Meanwhile, the client side doesn't matter.  Well then why are
: : people so concerned?
: The marketting! The marketting!
: Microsoft makes you understand the power of marketting,
: besides, NT is very easy to use. It doesn't have the none of
: the technology advancement, but it has the easiness for
: operating. That gets it into the server market. 

I talked about the so called "power of marketing" in some previous post
replying microbe.  Don't want to repeat it.

: For your information, Java(2) is Open Source, and it is very

Hmmm... take it easy, Java 2's source code is freely downloadable,
but it's not Open Source.  Come on, you don't need me to tell you
what is Open Source, do you?

: compatible with lots of other Open standard in a way that if
: that side of the technology is developed, it will be all fit
: in, inlike microsoft's stuff that always gives you some
: trouble here and there...
:
: Now, tell me, whose product C++ is? Give me some examples of
: "other competitors" who gets hurt in java technology
: development.

I was talking about "products" that are C++ based, not C++ itself.
Just name one of the "other competitors", Microsoft.  Why is it so
reasonably and naturally for Java to hurt Microsoft, not the other
way around?

: : Third, I've been tracking Microsoft products for the entire past decade.
: : The quality of these products has been improved over generations of those
: : products.  Just name one example, how would you compare the quality of
: : NT 3.51 and NT 4?  How about from NT 4 to W2K?
: geez, of course the quality improves. If they are half-dead
: chimpanzees, they would be able to make better bananas over
: a decade. But that doesn't mean their product is good, or
: their "evil scheme to take over the computing industry by
: their aweful product" is good either.

I made the above comments because in your previous post you implied
that Microsoft had been "lowering" the quality of their products.
Now you want to eat your own words and change to
"of course the quality improves"?  8-)

--
他号令便号令好了,又何必安静?

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: ]
发信人: magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Sep  7 00:10:34 2000) WWW-POST

【 在 microbe (奇妙的微生物) 的大作中提到: 】
:
: If they invented it, OK.  Sun invented NFS and NIS, that was great.  But MSFT
: seldom invents things.  They start from others' ideas and use its power to
: change it to fit its own needs.  This sucks, and makes others' life tough.

OK, tell me where the idea behind Java came from?  Isn't it
base on
many available languages, especially C++?  Does that make
Java not a
great language?  Or does that make Sun suck?

You are not the first admin and builder of this bbs, right?
Does that
mean only the guy who started this bbs is the great one?  No
matter what
kind of hard work you put into it to make it better and to
make all
of the users happy?

BTW, now you have changed your crieteria from
incompatibility to
originality.  So you don't think incompatibility makes
something
suck any more?

:
: I mean the passwords on disk.  It has to be plain text if you want to
: generate both hashes from it.

Why do you want to put plain text password on disk?  You
have two daemons
sitting in both machines reading passwords from either
side's user
data, encrypting them using whatever scheme, sending them
back and forth,
decrypting them, storing them into the other side's user
data.
Wouldn't that work?

--
他号令便号令好了,又何必安静?

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: ]
发信人: magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Sep  7 00:15:12 2000) WWW-POST

【 在 microbe (奇妙的微生物) 的大作中提到: 】
:
: Man, technical successs != market success.  I assume this is very clear
: as we discuss MSFT.

Again, I've talked about the power of marketing in some of
my posts
yesterday or the day before, and given some facts and
points.
I don't think I need to repeat it unless
I see any of you guys responding to those comments.

--
他号令便号令好了,又何必安静?

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: ]
发信人: magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Sep  7 00:21:08 2000) WWW-POST

【 在 ayanami (丑丑的甲亢) 的大作中提到: 】
: The marketting! The marketting!
: Microsoft makes you understand the power of marketting,
: besides, NT is very easy to use. It doesn't have the none of
: the technology advancement, but it has the easiness for
: operating. That gets it into the server market. 

OK I don't get it.  If a product doesn't have any bit of
technology
advancement, how can it be so "easy to use"?
If something is such a wonderful technology advancement, but
very hard to use, does it make sense?

: For your information, Java(2) is Open Source, and it is very
: compatible with lots of other Open standard in a way that if
: that side of the technology is developed, it will be all fit
: in, inlike microsoft's stuff that always gives you some
: trouble here and there...

Isn't that last piece of comment a bit contradictary to
those you
just made above?  I don't see how something can "give you
some
trouble here and there...", yet still make you feel "very
easy to use".


--
他号令便号令好了,又何必安静?

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: ]
发信人: magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Sep  7 00:26:46 2000) WWW-POST

【 在 qili (qili) 的大作中提到: 】
: correct me if I am wrong. I remember reading an interview
: of an ex-DEC guy who had a look at NT4.0, and was surprised
: that it looks like carbon copy of an DEC Unix-variant. It
: is also reported on the net that NT has a fair good Unix-like
: kernel. so from that perspective, there really isn't much
: foundamental difference between NT and Unix, except that
: Microsoft popularized Unix (under the disguise of NT/Windows).

The chief architect of NT4 used to be actively involved in
VMS
development.  You are right.  I have actually pointed out
that NT and Linux has the same level of compatibility to
POSIX.1
in post 3730.

--
他号令便号令好了,又何必安静?

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: ]
发信人: microbe (奇妙的微生物), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Sep  7 00:28:35 2000), 站内信件


I am closing this endless dispute.

Everyone has his own favorites.  But if you use Windows, you are bundled to
what MSFT gives you, many of which are non-standard.  It's hard for third
party to get in 'coz MSFT wants to sell you everything from system to
applications, even keyboards and mouses.  This makes me very uncomfortable.
You have no freedom using Windows.

--
我在门外坐了两天两夜,看着天空在不断的变化。
我才发现,虽然我到这里很久,却从来没有看清楚这片沙漠。

※ 修改:.microbe 于 Sep  7 00:31:22 修改本文.[FROM: 160.39.202.6]
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 160.39.202.6]
发信人: Blumlein (幸福是一种传说), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Sep  7 00:30:29 2000), 站内信件

呵呵, 如果大家讨论完乐, 偶就做个合集的说. 不过题目是要换
一个的, 大家有什么建议吗?
【 在 microbe (奇妙的微生物) 的大作中提到: 】
: I am closing this endless dispute.
: Everyone has his own favorites.  But if you use Windows, you are bundles to
: what MSFT gives you, many of which are non-standard.  It's hard for third
: party to get in 'coz MSFT wants to sell you everything from system to
: applications, even keyboards and mouses.  This makes me very uncomfortable.
: You have no freedom using Windows.


--
<七种武器>,七种不平凡的武器,它们是小马的拳头,长生剑,
孔雀翎,多情环,碧玉刀,霸王枪和离别钩,它们并不是真的常
胜不败,而是代表了友情,微笑,信心,仇恨,诚实,勇气和爱
情。如果我们拥有其中之一,也许我们就能永远不败。

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 128.125.5.71]
发信人: microbe (奇妙的微生物), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Sep  7 00:33:33 2000), 站内信件


NT just has a POSIX layer.  But if you do software development
under NT, you are tied to GUI, Win32 API, etc for sure.

【 在 magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 qili (qili) 的大作中提到: 】
: : correct me if I am wrong. I remember reading an interview
: : of an ex-DEC guy who had a look at NT4.0, and was surprised
: : that it looks like carbon copy of an DEC Unix-variant. It
: : is also reported on the net that NT has a fair good Unix-like
: : kernel. so from that perspective, there really isn't much
: : foundamental difference between NT and Unix, except that
: : Microsoft popularized Unix (under the disguise of NT/Windows).
: The chief architect of NT4 used to be actively involved in
: VMS
: development.  You are right.  I have actually pointed out
: that NT and Linux has the same level of compatibility to
: POSIX.1
: in post 3730.


--
我在门外坐了两天两夜,看着天空在不断的变化。
我才发现,虽然我到这里很久,却从来没有看清楚这片沙漠。

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 160.39.202.6]
发信人: microbe (奇妙的微生物), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Sep  7 00:36:58 2000), 站内信件

【 在 magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地) 的大作中提到: 】
: Why do you want to put plain text password on disk?  You
: have two daemons
: sitting in both machines reading passwords from either
: side's user
: data, encrypting them using whatever scheme, sending them
: back and forth,
: decrypting them, storing them into the other side's user
: data.
: Wouldn't that work?

You mean there is already such a thing?  I know we have Unix services
for Windows, but don't know much about that.  From what I know, it
doesn't work very well.

--
我在门外坐了两天两夜,看着天空在不断的变化。
我才发现,虽然我到这里很久,却从来没有看清楚这片沙漠。

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 160.39.202.6]
发信人: magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Sep  7 01:10:26 2000) WWW-POST


Hoho, xin ku xin ku.  How about "Endless Dispute: Episode
I"?  8-)

【 在 Blumlein (幸福是一种传说) 的大作中提到: 】
: 呵呵, 如果大家讨论完乐, 偶就做个合集的说. 不过题目是要换
: 一个的, 大家有什么建议吗?
: 【 在 microbe (奇妙的微生物) 的大作中提到: 】
: : I am closing this endless dispute.

--
他号令便号令好了,又何必安静?

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: ]
发信人: microbe (奇妙的微生物), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Sep  7 01:28:02 2000), 站内信件

【 在 loggie (四真大螺 饭吃三碗 倒头能着) 的大作中提到: 】
: MSFT also invented things beyond our windows sights, like DHCP, like CHAP.
: Its market oriented strategy decides that it won't bet on new tech, but
: take advantage of existing tech, and, improved it with its own features.
: However, sometimes it abused its domniant market position. This needs to
: be punished.

Microsoft invented DHCP?  Are you kidding me?


--
我在门外坐了两天两夜,看着天空在不断的变化。
我才发现,虽然我到这里很久,却从来没有看清楚这片沙漠。

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 160.39.202.6]
发信人: loggie (四真大螺 饭吃三碗 倒头能着), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Sep  7 04:24:00 2000), 站内信件

the major efforts of standardization are from MSFT, if i can remember it
correctly.

【 在 microbe (奇妙的微生物) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 loggie (四真大螺 饭吃三碗 倒头能着) 的大作中提到: 】
: : MSFT also invented things beyond our windows sights, like DHCP, like CHAP.
: : Its market oriented strategy decides that it won't bet on new tech, but
: : take advantage of existing tech, and, improved it with its own features.
: : However, sometimes it abused its domniant market position. This needs to
: : be punished.
: Microsoft invented DHCP?  Are you kidding me?


--
厚积薄发, 秉诚度世

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 204.69.198.34]
发信人: bz (bz), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Sep  7 06:33:16 2000), 转信


someday you will say MSFT invented GUI in this sense.

anyways, MSFT products are not network-ready, winsock sucks.

【 在 loggie (四真大螺 饭吃三碗 倒头能着) 的大作中提到: 】
: the major efforts of standardization are from MSFT, if i can remember it
: correctly.
: 【 在 microbe (奇妙的微生物) 的大作中提到: 】
: : Microsoft invented DHCP?  Are you kidding me?


--
我想家,可是我不哭

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 199.174.86.131]
发信人: magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Sep  7 09:47:06 2000) WWW-POST

【 在 bz (bz) 的大作中提到: 】
:
: someday you will say MSFT invented GUI in this sense.

Maybe loggie didn't choose the proper word, but I guess the point here
is MS also did a lot of contribution to this industry(yeah a lot damage
too but they don't offset each other), instead of whether it invented
something in "a sense defined strictly".

: anyways, MSFT products are not network-ready, winsock sucks.

So what exactly is your definition of network-ready?

--
他号令便号令好了,又何必安静?

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 63.89.141.6]
发信人: ayanami (丑丑的甲亢), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Sep  7 10:35:32 2000), 转信

【 在 magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 ayanami (丑丑的甲亢) 的大作中提到: 】
: : The marketting! The marketting!
: : Microsoft makes you understand the power of marketting,
: : besides, NT is very easy to use. It doesn't have the none of
: : the technology advancement, but it has the easiness for
: : operating. That gets it into the server market. 
:
: I talked about the so called "power of marketing" in some previous post
: replying microbe.  Don't want to repeat it.
:
: : For your information, Java(2) is Open Source, and it is very
:
: Hmmm... take it easy, Java 2's source code is freely downloadable,
: but it's not Open Source.  Come on, you don't need me to tell you
: what is Open Source, do you?

Though it is not GPLed, it is already better than Windows.

:
: : compatible with lots of other Open standard in a way that if
: : that side of the technology is developed, it will be all fit
: : in, inlike microsoft's stuff that always gives you some
: : trouble here and there...
: :
: : Now, tell me, whose product C++ is? Give me some examples of
: : "other competitors" who gets hurt in java technology
: : development.
:
: I was talking about "products" that are C++ based, not C++ itself.
: Just name one of the "other competitors", Microsoft.  Why is it so
: reasonably and naturally for Java to hurt Microsoft, not the other
: way around?
:
I dont think you need me to give you a lesson on the merit of java.
And I dont think I need to repeat that "Microsoft tends to lock you in their
own product, once you are in .Net and C#, you will be all suffocated in
Microsoft's no-working environment."

: : geez, of course the quality improves. If they are half-dead
: : chimpanzees, they would be able to make better bananas over
: : a decade. But that doesn't mean their product is good, or
: : their "evil scheme to take over the computing industry by
: : their aweful product" is good either.
:
: I made the above comments because in your previous post you implied
: that Microsoft had been "lowering" the quality of their products.
: Now you want to eat your own words and change to
: "of course the quality improves"?  8-)
Microsoft's product has low quality is not "had been lowering their products".


--
"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 64.252.67.138]
发信人: magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Sep  7 14:19:59 2000) WWW-POST

【 在 ayanami (丑丑的甲亢) 的大作中提到: 】
: :
: : : For your information, Java(2) is Open Source, and it is very
: :
: : Hmmm... take it easy, Java 2's source code is freely downloadable,
: : but it's not Open Source.  Come on, you don't need me to tell you
: : what is Open Source, do you?
:
: Though it is not GPLed, it is already better than Windows.

I just wanted to point out Java is not Open Source as you
said it was.

: I dont think you need me to give you a lesson on the merit of java.
: And I dont think I need to repeat that "Microsoft tends to lock you in their
: own product, once you are in .Net and C#, you will be all suffocated in
: Microsoft's no-working environment."

No, you don't.  Even if you do, it won't help, because you
are talking
against yourself.  One moment you said "NT 4 is very easy to
use", the
next one you said "Microsoft's no-working environment".  8-)

: : I made the above comments because in your previous post you implied
: : that Microsoft had been "lowering" the quality of their products.
: : Now you want to eat your own words and change to
: : "of course the quality improves"?  8-)
: Microsoft's product has low quality is not "had been lowering their products".

If you go back and read your own post, you were the one who
started
saying "lower quality of their products", where "lower" was
obviously
used as a verb.

--
他号令便号令好了,又何必安静?

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 63.89.141.6]
发信人: ayanami (丑丑的甲亢), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Sep  7 14:43:39 2000), 转信

【 在 magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 ayanami (丑丑的甲亢) 的大作中提到: 】
: : Though it is not GPLed, it is already better than Windows.
: I just wanted to point out Java is not Open Source as you
: said it was.
: : I dont think you need me to give you a lesson on the merit of java.
: : And I dont think I need to repeat that "Microsoft tends to lock you in their
: : own product, once you are in .Net and C#, you will be all suffocated in
: : Microsoft's no-working environment."
: No, you don't.  Even if you do, it won't help, because you
: are talking
: against yourself.  One moment you said "NT 4 is very easy to
: use", the
: next one you said "Microsoft's no-working environment".  8-)
Let me make an analogy. Razor is easy to ride, Car is more difficult to learn.
Which one goes faster? Easy to use != Working enviornment.

: : Microsoft's product has low quality is not "had been lowering their products".
: If you go back and read your own post, you were the one who
: started
: saying "lower quality of their products", where "lower" was
: obviously
: used as a verb.
Well, they could make their product with score 9, but now they deliberately
make them score 7. Their previous product is with score 5.
Question solved.

--
"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 64.252.67.138]
发信人: ayanami (丑丑的甲亢), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Sep  7 14:45:41 2000), 转信

【 在 qili (qili) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 ayanami (丑丑的甲亢) 的大作中提到: 】
: : UNIX is no the samething even 5 years ago. I sugest you instal the latest
: : , say , mandrake 7.2 to see how bleeding edge it is.
: I am sure you are right about Mandrake 7.2 (tho. it sure wasn't the
: case for Mandrake 6.0 which I run now).
: The point isn't how long a way Linux/Unix has come. It is how INFERIOR
: they are to Windows in user friendliness, and marketability.
: The millions of Windows users aren't fools. At least not all of them.
The millions of windows users are not fools, they are just uninformed.

--
"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 64.252.67.138]
发信人: magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Sep  7 14:51:28 2000) WWW-POST

【 在 ayanami (丑丑的甲亢) 的大作中提到: 】
: Let me make an analogy. Razor is easy to ride, Car is more difficult to learn.
: Which one goes faster? Easy to use != Working enviornment.

I assume you mean "an environment that doesn't work" by
saying "no-working
environmtent".  So how could an environment be "no-working"
yet "easy to
use"?  8-)

: Well, they could make their product with score 9, but now they deliberately
: make them score 7. Their previous product is with score 5.
: Question solved.

Good argument, butta, wait a sec, you are underpaid, right?
you should
have got a raise of 10K this year but you only got 5K.  Did
you boss
"lower" your salary?  8-)

(Yeah, this whatever war is not only educational, but also
entertaining...)

--
他号令便号令好了,又何必安静?

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 63.89.141.6]
发信人: ayanami (丑丑的甲亢), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Sep  7 14:56:44 2000), 转信

It could be easy to use for some easy task such as, word processing,
printing server...

【 在 magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 ayanami (丑丑的甲亢) 的大作中提到: 】
: : Let me make an analogy. Razor is easy to ride, Car is more difficult to learn.
: : Which one goes faster? Easy to use != Working enviornment.
: I assume you mean "an environment that doesn't work" by
: saying "no-working
: environmtent".  So how could an environment be "no-working"
: yet "easy to
: use"?  8-)
: : Well, they could make their product with score 9, but now they deliberately
: : make them score 7. Their previous product is with score 5.
: : Question solved.
: Good argument, butta, wait a sec, you are underpaid, right?
: you should
: have got a raise of 10K this year but you only got 5K.  Did
: you boss
: "lower" your salary?  8-)
: (Yeah, this whatever war is not only educational, but also
: entertaining...)
well, I think so!


--
"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 64.252.67.138]
发信人: magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Sep  7 15:01:33 2000) WWW-POST

【 在 ayanami (丑丑的甲亢) 的大作中提到: 】
: It could be easy to use for some easy task such as, word processing,
: printing server...

8-DDDD, but you didn't say "for some easy task".  Besides, a
"no-working"
environment wouldn't work even "for some easy task", not to
say
"be easy to use".  8-DDD

--
他号令便号令好了,又何必安静?

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 63.89.141.6]
发信人: qili (qili), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Sep  7 15:05:17 2000), 站内信件

I think the whole discussion is not very well defined. We started
from performance, to incompatibility, to ease of use, to
innovation, etc. with various flavors of statements that
are becoming increasingly difficult to follow.

Why don't each side make 3-5 pros / cons of your favorite OS
vs. the other, and we go from there?

No changing definition, no re-re-re-restating your points.

Anyone willing to take the chanllenge?

--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 129.79.6.176]
发信人: ayanami (丑丑的甲亢), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Sep  7 15:10:17 2000), 转信

ugh..//kick
:-)

【 在 magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 ayanami (丑丑的甲亢) 的大作中提到: 】
: : It could be easy to use for some easy task such as, word processing,
: : printing server...
: 8-DDDD, but you didn't say "for some easy task".  Besides, a
: "no-working"
: environment wouldn't work even "for some easy task", not to
: say
: "be easy to use".  8-DDD


--
"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 64.252.67.138]
发信人: ayanami (丑丑的甲亢), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Sep  7 15:11:58 2000), 转信

sure. tonight. :-)

【 在 qili (qili) 的大作中提到: 】
: I think the whole discussion is not very well defined. We started
: from performance, to incompatibility, to ease of use, to
: innovation, etc. with various flavors of statements that
: are becoming increasingly difficult to follow.
: Why don't each side make 3-5 pros / cons of your favorite OS
: vs. the other, and we go from there?
: No changing definition, no re-re-re-restating your points.
: Anyone willing to take the chanllenge?


--
"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 64.252.67.138]
发信人: bz (bz), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Sep  7 17:47:32 2000), 转信


yeah, right, MSFT "contributes" a lot, but a clear point is all these
"contribution"s are just for their Mono. It is like selling drugs, if  I
give you a pill for cheap, then later on whe you can not leave me, you
have to pay huge bucks. Look at MSFT's major contributions, you will
see they are in fact damaging the whole industry. The latest case is the
copyright stuff of the ASF format, thanks god, they did not register
the patent of the BIFF. MSFT made too much MSFT standards, some webpages
can only display under IE, not netscape, or anything else. Goto Hell!

so best way to save the industry is to kick off MSFT first, even though
it sounds pretty pale at this point, 'coz a lot of ppl are used to the
"ease of use" and enjoying those pirated stuff. I am NOT a die-hard linux
fan, but I really appreciate linux's giving an alternative and a challenge
to MSFT, as well a more clear (tranparent) tech background.

As for what is the definition of "network ready", hmm, I suggest you
go read <<MSFT TCP/IP>> and do a research of ".net" project of MSFT. It is
not very easy to speak now, 'coz arguing based on different thoughts is
almost meaningless. maybe I am wrong, maybe I am right, save time on doing
some real things.

【 在 magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 bz (bz) 的大作中提到: 】
: :
: : someday you will say MSFT invented GUI in this sense.
:
: Maybe loggie didn't choose the proper word, but I guess the point here
: is MS also did a lot of contribution to this industry(yeah a lot damage
: too but they don't offset each other), instead of whether it invented
: something in "a sense defined strictly".
:
: : anyways, MSFT products are not network-ready, winsock sucks.
:
: So what exactly is your definition of network-ready?


--
我想家,可是我不哭

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 165.121.127.35]
发信人: loggie (四真大螺 饭吃三碗 倒头能着), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Sep  7 20:18:59 2000), 站内信件

i would repeat what u said, MSFT did invent PC GUI.

【 在 bz (bz) 的大作中提到: 】
: someday you will say MSFT invented GUI in this sense.
: anyways, MSFT products are not network-ready, winsock sucks.
: 【 在 loggie (四真大螺 饭吃三碗 倒头能着) 的大作中提到: 】
: : the major efforts of standardization are from MSFT, if i can remember it
: : correctly.


--
厚积薄发, 秉诚度世

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 171.71.138.217]
发信人: magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Fri Sep  8 01:57:17 2000) WWW-POST

【 在 bz (bz) 的大作中提到: 】
:
: yeah, right, MSFT "contributes" a lot, but a clear point is all these
: "contribution"s are just for their Mono. It is like selling drugs, if  I
: give you a pill for cheap, then later on whe you can not leave me, you
: have to pay huge bucks. Look at MSFT's major contributions, you will
: see they are in fact damaging the whole industry. The latest case is the
: copyright stuff of the ASF format, thanks god, they did not register
: the patent of the BIFF. MSFT made too much MSFT standards, some webpages
: can only display under IE, not netscape, or anything else. Goto Hell!

(sigh, why are people so easy to get emotional thesedays?)
Well, how would you explain there are also some webpages
can only display under netscape, not IE?  Especially those
with DHTML, or Javascript?

Also how would you comment on necessary protection of
intellectual property?  Are you going to blam Sun too,
for it having a non-"Open Source" license on Java and
being reluctant on releasing Java to the public?

: so best way to save the industry is to kick off MSFT first, even though
: it sounds pretty pale at this point, 'coz a lot of ppl are used to the
: "ease of use" and enjoying those pirated stuff. I am NOT a die-hard linux
: fan, but I really appreciate linux's giving an alternative and a challenge
: to MSFT, as well a more clear (tranparent) tech background.

So if some products are so "easy to use",
why is it a bad thing that those
products actually did a lot of damages to those
that are not so "easy to use"?

:
: As for what is the definition of "network ready", hmm, I suggest you
: go read <<MSFT TCP/IP>> and do a research of ".net" project of MSFT. It is
: not very easy to speak now, 'coz arguing based on different thoughts is
: almost meaningless. maybe I am wrong, maybe I am right, save time on doing
: some real things.

Interesting.  But I believe the term "network ready"
is not, and should not, be defined by Microsoft.
Besides, if you were so confident to say "Microsoft
products are not network ready", you must have some
evidence at hand to show me that some *existing* products
like Windows 9x, NT, or W2K are not "network ready",
rather than referring me to some protocol implementation
by Microsoft, or some product proposal -- which will
not enter the market any time soon.

It is hard to argue based on different thoughts.
Yet it is even harder to argue based on evasive words.

--
他号令便号令好了,又何必安静?

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: ]
发信人: moi (最后一个莫西干人), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Fri Sep  8 11:27:26 2000), 转信





【 在 magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 ayanami (丑丑的甲亢) 的大作中提到: 】
: : The marketting! The marketting!
: : Microsoft makes you understand the power of marketting,
: : besides, NT is very easy to use. It doesn't have the none of
: : the technology advancement, but it has the easiness for
: : operating. That gets it into the server market. 
: OK I don't get it.  If a product doesn't have any bit of
: technology
: advancement, how can it be so "easy to use"?
it not the point. as for unix commands, i can add some gui just as the shell
if will be easy to use. but i dont think there is much tech advances


: If something is such a wonderful technology advancement, but
: very hard to use, does it make sense?
: : For your information, Java(2) is Open Source, and it is very
: : compatible with lots of other Open standard in a way that if
: : that side of the technology is developed, it will be all fit
: : in, inlike microsoft's stuff that always gives you some
: : trouble here and there...
: Isn't that last piece of comment a bit contradictary to
: those you
: just made above?  I don't see how something can "give you
: some
: trouble here and there...", yet still make you feel "very
: easy to use".


--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 128.238.42.181]
发信人: grammy (Byte), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: why I am posting those...
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Fri Sep  8 13:44:03 2000), 转信

As far as I remember, JSP comes after asp, right?

To the comerical world, who can develop the idea is also very important.
Of course the one who can create an idea must be able to develop it, or they
will be abandoned by the world. The Zip father died.

【 在 microbe (奇妙的微生物) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地) 的大作中提到: 】
: : If you look back into the history of this industry, most of the innovations
: : were brought up by companies "whose primary concern is making profit and dominating the market".  Just to name a few, IBM, Microsoft, Sun, etc.
: : Most of those new technologies made it to some standards
: : set by a neutral and non-profit orgniation only after having
: : become the de facto standard.
: If they invented it, OK.  Sun invented NFS and NIS, that was great.  But MSFT
: seldom invents things.  They start from others' ideas and use its power to
: change it to fit its own needs.  This sucks, and makes others' life tough.
: : The transmission of passwords is of course encrypted.  You are not
: : too paranoid to afford having a piece of plain text password in your
: : memory for a second, are you?  8-)
: I mean the passwords on disk.  It has to be plain text if you want to
: generate both hashes from it.


--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 32.101.255.138]

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