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hypocrisy of sun

发信人: breeze (gaga), 信区: ITnews
标  题: hypocrisy of sun
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Mar 28 13:33:41 2001) WWW-POST

so now sun is bundling iplanet into solaris.. how does this
differ from microsoft bundling ie into windows?

13:16 ET BEA Systems (BEAS) 28 7/16 -5 5/16 (-15.7%):
Commenting on Sun Micro (SUNW) decision to bundle its
application server into the Solaris operating system, SG
Cowen says this is the most aggressive marketing move Sun
has made in this market segment in a long time.  While the
Sun application server is technically inferior to BEA, feels
this move will make investors nervous in the short-term on
BEA.

--
Greed is good - Gordon Gekko

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: adsl-64-170-125]
发信人: amnesia (Hua Hi Lo Ho), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: hypocrisy of sun
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Mar 28 18:13:24 2001) WWW-POST

That just proves how dirty the industry is. When they can't
beat Microsoft in market, these sour grapes turn to
government. And they themselves are actually doing the same
thing.

I'd say 

Oracle is a monopoly and illegally bundle its database with
its application server.
Sun is illegally bundle IPlanet with Solaris.
AOL is illegally bundle IM with its setup program.


【 在 breeze (gaga) 的大作中提到: 】
: so now sun is bundling iplanet into solaris.. how does this
: differ from microsoft bundling ie into windows?
:
: 13:16 ET BEA Systems (BEAS) 28 7/16 -5 5/16 (-15.7%):
: Commenting on Sun Micro (SUNW) decision to bundle its
: application server into the Solaris operating system, SG
: Cowen says this is the most aggressive marketing move Sun
: has made in this market segment in a long time.  While the
: Sun application server is technically inferior to BEA, feels
: this move will make investors nervous in the short-term on
: BEA.
:

--
it's not that i cant live without you
it's just that i dont even want to try

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: tide70.microsof]
发信人: jinfeng (PigHead), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: hypocrisy of sun
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Mar 28 20:22:08 2001), 站内信件

since you're a MS guy, you'd at least 避嫌吧 on this issue...
you'd wait and let me say it....although pretty soon
i'm gonna lose this privilege. :)

btw,are you in nt/windows division?

【 在 amnesia (Hua Hi Lo Ho) 的大作中提到: 】
: That just proves how dirty the industry is. When they can't
: beat Microsoft in market, these sour grapes turn to
: government. And they themselves are actually doing the same
: thing.
: I'd say 
: Oracle is a monopoly and illegally bundle its database with
: its application server.
: Sun is illegally bundle IPlanet with Solaris.
: AOL is illegally bundle IM with its setup program.
: 【 在 breeze (gaga) 的大作中提到: 】
: : so now sun is bundling iplanet into solaris.. how does this
: : differ from microsoft bundling ie into windows?
: : 13:16 ET BEA Systems (BEAS) 28 7/16 -5 5/16 (-15.7%):
: : Commenting on Sun Micro (SUNW) decision to bundle its
: : application server into the Solaris operating system, SG
: : Cowen says this is the most aggressive marketing move Sun
: : has made in this market segment in a long time.  While the
: : Sun application server is technically inferior to BEA, feels
: : this move will make investors nervous in the short-term on
: : BEA.


--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 140.233.202.94]
发信人: dfehHo (ehHo), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: hypocrisy of sun
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Mar 29 02:10:46 2001) WWW-POST

【 在 amnesia (Hua Hi Lo Ho) 的大作中提到: 】
: That just proves how dirty the industry is. When they can't
: beat Microsoft in market, these sour grapes turn to
: government. And they themselves are actually doing the same
: thing.

: I'd say 

: Oracle is a monopoly and illegally bundle its database with
: its application server.
: Sun is illegally bundle IPlanet with Solaris.
: AOL is illegally bundle IM with its setup program.

they learn it from microsoft, microsoft must die first, then
no one else will do it again.


:
: 【 在 breeze (gaga) 的大作中提到: 】
: : so now sun is bundling iplanet into solaris.. how does this
: : differ from microsoft bundling ie into windows?
: :
: : 13:16 ET BEA Systems (BEAS) 28 7/16 -5 5/16 (-15.7%):
: : Commenting on Sun Micro (SUNW) decision to bundle its
: : application server into the Solaris operating system, SG
: : Cowen says this is the most aggressive marketing move Sun
: : has made in this market segment in a long time.  While the
: : Sun application server is technically inferior to BEA, feels
: : this move will make investors nervous in the short-term on
: : BEA.
: :
:


--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: ]
发信人: magicfat (魔法胖子~missing my Friend), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: hypocrisy of sun
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Mar 29 12:00:52 2001), 站内信件

【 在 dfehHo (ehHo) 的大作中提到: 】
: they learn it from microsoft, microsoft must die first, then
: no one else will do it again.

I'm sure G.W.Bush would be happy to hear about your opinion because
that justifies his sending bunch of folks to the electrical chair
in Texas.

Butta, unfortunately, there are still more folks shooting
people out there, despite "the terror of the death penalty".

--
他号令便号令好了,又何必安静?

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 38.204.0.2]
发信人: ayanami (我是可爱的男甲亢), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: hypocrisy of sun
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Sat Mar 31 19:56:49 2001), 转信

I just simply can't stand the ignorance in microsoft camp any longer.
Tell me one simple way to just remove IE and use Netscape or any other web
browser as my default one?
I want choices, simple as that. ANd microsoft doesn't give you anyone.

【 在 amnesia (Hua Hi Lo Ho) 的大作中提到: 】
: That just proves how dirty the industry is. When they can't
: beat Microsoft in market, these sour grapes turn to
: government. And they themselves are actually doing the same
: thing.
: I'd say 
: Oracle is a monopoly and illegally bundle its database with
: its application server.
: Sun is illegally bundle IPlanet with Solaris.
: AOL is illegally bundle IM with its setup program.
: 【 在 breeze (gaga) 的大作中提到: 】
: : so now sun is bundling iplanet into solaris.. how does this
: : differ from microsoft bundling ie into windows?
: : 13:16 ET BEA Systems (BEAS) 28 7/16 -5 5/16 (-15.7%):
: : Commenting on Sun Micro (SUNW) decision to bundle its
: : application server into the Solaris operating system, SG
: : Cowen says this is the most aggressive marketing move Sun
: : has made in this market segment in a long time.  While the
: : Sun application server is technically inferior to BEA, feels
: : this move will make investors nervous in the short-term on
: : BEA.


--
telnet to zpbbs.dhs.org

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 168.191.42.165]
发信人: qili (qili), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: hypocrisy of sun
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Sat Mar 31 20:20:02 2001), 站内信件

【 在 ayanami (我是可爱的男甲亢) 的大作中提到: 】
: I just simply can't stand the ignorance in microsoft camp any longer.
: Tell me one simple way to just remove IE and use Netscape or any other web
: browser as my default one?

in the <netscape 4.7 days, installing navigator and it will ask if
you want to use it as default brower. so that part is easy.

On the removing IE part. There has to be a point where certain
functions of an OS are so tightly integrated such that forcing
the OS to allow endless and sometimes meaningless "choices"
may be too inefficient. For example, what if a user demands
to use 3rd-party networking mechanism? or someone wanting to
use his own kernel; or another using 3rd-party memory management system?

someone has to draw a line somewhere. and the same thing happens
anywhere in any OS. Microsoft is in the business to make
money, not to write an OS so that everyone is happy. In this particular
case, Microsoft is outthere to please the most users. Judging from
its marketshare, it has done a pretty good job at that.

: I want choices, simple as that. ANd microsoft doesn't give you anyone.

It is not like any OS gives you any choices you demand. Life is tough.

--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 209.246.67.19]
发信人: amnesia (Hua Hi Lo Ho), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: hypocrisy of sun
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Mon Apr  2 13:06:25 2001) WWW-POST

IE is "System Component" to Windows. You cannot uninstall a
system component. However, Microsoft doesn't prevent you
from installing other browsers and use them as default. If
you really really have to have a Windows that doesn't bundle
with IE, try Windows3.1.

Your question is sorta like: Gimme a horse that runs fast
and doesn't eat. (why doesn't the horse eat(drink) gas?
where's the choice?)

【 在 ayanami (我是可爱的男甲亢) 的大作中提到: 】
: I just simply can't stand the ignorance in microsoft camp any longer.
: Tell me one simple way to just remove IE and use Netscape or any other web
: browser as my default one?
: I want choices, simple as that. ANd microsoft doesn't give you anyone.
:
: 【 在 amnesia (Hua Hi Lo Ho) 的大作中提到: 】
: : That just proves how dirty the industry is. When they can't
: : beat Microsoft in market, these sour grapes turn to
: : government. And they themselves are actually doing the same
: : thing.
: : I'd say 
: : Oracle is a monopoly and illegally bundle its database with
: : its application server.
: : Sun is illegally bundle IPlanet with Solaris.
: : AOL is illegally bundle IM with its setup program.
: : 【 在 breeze (gaga) 的大作中提到: 】
: : : so now sun is bundling iplanet into solaris.. how does this
: : : differ from microsoft bundling ie into windows?
: : : 13:16 ET BEA Systems (BEAS) 28 7/16 -5 5/16 (-15.7%):
: : : Commenting on Sun Micro (SUNW) decision to bundle its
: : : application server into the Solaris operating system, SG
: : : Cowen says this is the most aggressive marketing move Sun
: : : has made in this market segment in a long time.  While the
: : : Sun application server is technically inferior to BEA, feels
: : : this move will make investors nervous in the short-term on
: : : BEA.
:
:


--
it's not that i cant live without you
it's just that i dont even want to try

※ 修改:·amnesia 於 Apr  2 13:06:25 修改本文·[FROM: tide70.microsof]
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: tide70.microsof]
发信人: microbe (奇妙的微生物), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: hypocrisy of sun
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Mon Apr  2 13:17:19 2001), 站内信件


【 在 amnesia (Hua Hi Lo Ho) 的大作中提到: 】
: IE is "System Component" to Windows. You cannot uninstall a
: system component. However, Microsoft doesn't prevent you
: from installing other browsers and use them as default. If
: you really really have to have a Windows that doesn't bundle
: with IE, try Windows3.1.
: Your question is sorta like: Gimme a horse that runs fast
: and doesn't eat. (why doesn't the horse eat(drink) gas?
: where's the choice?)

No no no, I think the question is exactly like this:

You buy my horse, and you have to buy my brand of grass, otherwise
this horse can't run well.

And they call the grass a "system commponent" of the horse.

: 【 在 ayanami (我是可爱的男甲亢) 的大作中提到: 】
: : I just simply can't stand the ignorance in microsoft camp any longer.
: : Tell me one simple way to just remove IE and use Netscape or any other web
: : browser as my default one?
: : I want choices, simple as that. ANd microsoft doesn't give you anyone.


--
我在门外坐了两天两夜,看着天空在不断的变化。
我才发现,虽然我到这里很久,却从来没有看清楚这片沙漠。

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 160.39.200.28]
发信人: qili (qili), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: hypocrisy of sun
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Mon Apr  2 13:27:54 2001), 站内信件

【 在 microbe (奇妙的微生物) 的大作中提到: 】
: No no no, I think the question is exactly like this:
: You buy my horse, and you have to buy my brand of grass, otherwise
: this horse can't run well.
: And they call the grass a "system commponent" of the horse.

No no no, the following is more accurate:

the buyer: I would like to buy your horse. However, before I do,
I would like you to install my dog's brain, my cat's legs, my
rabbit's heart, and my bird's wings. Please make sure that
they work flawlessly before delivery.

If you don't agree, i will sue you for illegal bundling.

the seller: "".

This whole IE business is like you demand a Ford transmission
be installed on a Camry right off a Toyota assembly line.

--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 63.210.222.153]
发信人: whh (大不了爱吃爱吃), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: hypocrisy of sun
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Mon Apr  2 13:57:44 2001), 站内信件

But Ford is not a monopoly in auto industry, that's the key difference.
Assume you don't like MSG, if a chef in any particular resturant insists
putting MSG in every dish he produces, nobody will sue him for illegal
bundling since you can choose others. If your wife insists putting MSG
and does not allow you to dine out (you are either lazy or incapable to
cook by youself), you will be considering a divorce.

【 在 qili (qili) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 microbe (奇妙的微生物) 的大作中提到: 】
: : No no no, I think the question is exactly like this:
: : You buy my horse, and you have to buy my brand of grass, otherwise
: : this horse can't run well.
: : And they call the grass a "system commponent" of the horse.
: No no no, the following is more accurate:
: the buyer: I would like to buy your horse. However, before I do,
: I would like you to install my dog's brain, my cat's legs, my
: rabbit's heart, and my bird's wings. Please make sure that
: they work flawlessly before delivery.
: If you don't agree, i will sue you for illegal bundling.
: the seller: "".
: This whole IE business is like you demand a Ford transmission
: be installed on a Camry right off a Toyota assembly line.


--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 128.107.148.80]
发信人: amnesia (Hua Hi Lo Ho), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: hypocrisy of sun
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Mon Apr  2 14:07:28 2001) WWW-POST

well, first, you have the choice of Mac, Linux, and all
other flavors of Unix.
second, you can still put your favorite browser on Windows
(leaving IE there doesn't hurt you. but if you insist
removing it, things like Office, VS, Windows Explorer, etc
etc all break.)

【 在 whh (大不了爱吃爱吃) 的大作中提到: 】
: But Ford is not a monopoly in auto industry, that's the key difference.
: Assume you don't like MSG, if a chef in any particular resturant insists
: putting MSG in every dish he produces, nobody will sue him for illegal
: bundling since you can choose others. If your wife insists putting MSG
: and does not allow you to dine out (you are either lazy or incapable to
: cook by youself), you will be considering a divorce.
:
: 【 在 qili (qili) 的大作中提到: 】
: : 【 在 microbe (奇妙的微生物) 的大作中提到: 】
: : : No no no, I think the question is exactly like this:
: : : You buy my horse, and you have to buy my brand of grass, otherwise
: : : this horse can't run well.
: : : And they call the grass a "system commponent" of the horse.
: : No no no, the following is more accurate:
: : the buyer: I would like to buy your horse. However, before I do,
: : I would like you to install my dog's brain, my cat's legs, my
: : rabbit's heart, and my bird's wings. Please make sure that
: : they work flawlessly before delivery.
: : If you don't agree, i will sue you for illegal bundling.
: : the seller: "".
: : This whole IE business is like you demand a Ford transmission
: : be installed on a Camry right off a Toyota assembly line.
:
:

--
it's not that i cant live without you
it's just that i dont even want to try

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: tide70.microsof]
发信人: whh (大不了爱吃爱吃), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: hypocrisy of sun
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Mon Apr  2 15:42:02 2001), 站内信件

1. The choice you mentioned is not really a choice considering the
market share of Windows, especially in consumer OS market. You can't find
all sorts of apps running on other OSes.
2. Leaving IE does slow down my computer and it is possible to remove
IE without hurting the whole system. Prof. Felten has already proved
that in the trial.

【 在 amnesia (Hua Hi Lo Ho) 的大作中提到: 】
: well, first, you have the choice of Mac, Linux, and all
: other flavors of Unix.
: second, you can still put your favorite browser on Windows
: (leaving IE there doesn't hurt you. but if you insist
: removing it, things like Office, VS, Windows Explorer, etc
: etc all break.)
: 【 在 whh (大不了爱吃爱吃) 的大作中提到: 】
: : But Ford is not a monopoly in auto industry, that's the key difference.
: : Assume you don't like MSG, if a chef in any particular resturant insists
: : putting MSG in every dish he produces, nobody will sue him for illegal
: : bundling since you can choose others. If your wife insists putting MSG
: : and does not allow you to dine out (you are either lazy or incapable to
: : cook by youself), you will be considering a divorce.


--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 128.107.148.80]
发信人: qili (qili), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: hypocrisy of sun
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Mon Apr  2 17:13:23 2001), 站内信件

【 在 whh (大不了爱吃爱吃) 的大作中提到: 】
: But Ford is not a monopoly in auto industry, that's the key difference.
: Assume you don't like MSG, if a chef in any particular resturant insists
: putting MSG in every dish he produces, nobody will sue him for illegal
: bundling since you can choose others. If your wife insists putting MSG

what if the chef is so good at making his dishes that nobody wants to
go to others? if it is OK to bundle if you are no good?

: and does not allow you to dine out (you are either lazy or incapable to
: cook by youself), you will be considering a divorce.

Going back to Ford. There are die-hard ford fans who wouldn't drive
anything other than a Ford. In a year or so, when GM quits making
Camaro, Ford will have 100% of the muscle car market. Will the
Doj force Ford to use customer-specified components in the Mustang
by that time?

How about Broadway shows? or Movie studios? Both entities are
monopoly by nature (you cannot find two theaters showing
"Cats", or two studios producing "Mission Impossible", right?).
Does the lack of competition justify me asking them to use
my friends as co-stars, or change its script?

--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 63.210.223.148]
发信人: whh (大不了爱吃爱吃), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: hypocrisy of sun
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Mon Apr  2 18:55:11 2001), 站内信件


【 在 qili (qili) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 whh (大不了爱吃爱吃) 的大作中提到: 】
: : But Ford is not a monopoly in auto industry, that's the key difference.
: : Assume you don't like MSG, if a chef in any particular resturant insists
: : putting MSG in every dish he produces, nobody will sue him for illegal
: : bundling since you can choose others. If your wife insists putting MSG
: what if the chef is so good at making his dishes that nobody wants to
: go to others? if it is OK to bundle if you are no good?

If the chef dominates the market and hurts consumers and competition, sure
you can sue him. So good does not mean he can do illegal business act.

: : and does not allow you to dine out (you are either lazy or incapable to
: : cook by youself), you will be considering a divorce.
: Going back to Ford. There are die-hard ford fans who wouldn't drive
: anything other than a Ford. In a year or so, when GM quits making
: Camaro, Ford will have 100% of the muscle car market. Will the
: Doj force Ford to use customer-specified components in the Mustang
: by that time?
: How about Broadway shows? or Movie studios? Both entities are
: monopoly by nature (you cannot find two theaters showing
: "Cats", or two studios producing "Mission Impossible", right?).
: Does the lack of competition justify me asking them to use
: my friends as co-stars, or change its script?

If you can prove they dominate the market and hurt consumers & competition
illegally, you can.

--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 128.107.148.80]
发信人: qili (qili), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: hypocrisy of sun
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Mon Apr  2 19:41:32 2001), 站内信件

【 在 whh (大不了爱吃爱吃) 的大作中提到: 】
: If the chef dominates the market and hurts consumers and competition, sure
: you can sue him. So good does not mean he can do illegal business act.

do I hear you that Sun can bundle the networking into its OS because
it is no good? Is that how the law dictates or that's just your
interpretation of the law?

: If you can prove they dominate the market and hurt consumers & competition
: illegally, you can.

Sure, the practice hurts the consumers: if 100 theaters were allowed to
offer "Cats", the consumers wouldn't have to pay $80 for a ticket;

I am sure you can also find people who are extremely upset that
the show didn't adopt their script?

Have your heard anyone suing? No.

Does that say anything about the absurdity of this "I want to replace
that piece of OS/car/show/you-name-it" argument?

--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 209.246.90.174]
发信人: whh (大不了爱吃爱吃), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: hypocrisy of sun
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Mon Apr  2 19:51:47 2001), 站内信件


【 在 qili (qili) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 whh (大不了爱吃爱吃) 的大作中提到: 】
: : If the chef dominates the market and hurts consumers and competition, sure
: : you can sue him. So good does not mean he can do illegal business act.
: do I hear you that Sun can bundle the networking into its OS because
: it is no good? Is that how the law dictates or that's just your
: interpretation of the law?

Is Sun a monopoly? I have never commented on Sun's bundling before.

: : If you can prove they dominate the market and hurt consumers & competition
: : illegally, you can.
: Sure, the practice hurts the consumers: if 100 theaters were allowed to
: offer "Cats", the consumers wouldn't have to pay $80 for a ticket;

Does Broadway intentionally hurt competition to launch any "Cat" show anywhere?

: I am sure you can also find people who are extremely upset that
: the show didn't adopt their script?
: Have your heard anyone suing? No.
: Does that say anything about the absurdity of this "I want to replace
: that piece of OS/car/show/you-name-it" argument?

I haven't found anything any closer to MS's case yet.

--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 128.107.148.80]
发信人: qili (qili), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: hypocrisy of sun
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Tue Apr  3 10:48:52 2001) WWW-POST

【 在 whh (大不了爱吃爱吃) 的大作中提到: 】
: Is Sun a monopoly? I have never commented on Sun's bundling before.

Sun drove MIPS out of business, and rendered SGI irrelevant
in the high-end servers market. Some Sun ads touting Sun
servers being the backbone of the .com surgence.


: : : If you can prove they dominate the market and hurt consumers & competition
: : : illegally, you can.
: : Sure, the practice hurts the consumers: if 100 theaters were allowed to
: : offer "Cats", the consumers wouldn't have to pay $80 for a ticket;
:
: Does Broadway intentionally hurt competition to launch any "Cat" show anywhere?

the opposite. Cats is only shown at one theater at a given
time. so there is a 100% monopoly and no substitute. The
same would be true for recording labels too.

: I haven't found anything any closer to MS's case yet.

Other examples would be utilities (try to ask your
electricity supplier to put in your-brand of transformers),
patented technology, Apple, etc.

Or take Intel for example. Ask yourself why you would not
have a chance to ask Intel to use AMD FPU in P4?

People seem to be losing common sense when it comes to
Microsoft.


--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 204.60.124.22]
发信人: ayanami (我是可爱的男甲亢), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: hypocrisy of sun
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Tue Apr  3 11:00:31 2001), 转信

And one more thing, Sun's technology doesn't use prioprietry format and tries
to make competitor's product useless by changing the format in every update
release. Try to make windows 2000 compatible with Samba is a pain, and talking
about intentionally designed...

【 在 qili (qili) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 whh (大不了爱吃爱吃) 的大作中提到: 】
: : Is Sun a monopoly? I have never commented on Sun's bundling before.
: Sun drove MIPS out of business, and rendered SGI irrelevant
: in the high-end servers market. Some Sun ads touting Sun
: servers being the backbone of the .com surgence.
: : Does Broadway intentionally hurt competition to launch any "Cat" show anywhere?
: the opposite. Cats is only shown at one theater at a given
: time. so there is a 100% monopoly and no substitute. The
: same would be true for recording labels too.
: : I haven't found anything any closer to MS's case yet.
: Other examples would be utilities (try to ask your
: electricity supplier to put in your-brand of transformers),
: patented technology, Apple, etc.
: Or take Intel for example. Ask yourself why you would not
: have a chance to ask Intel to use AMD FPU in P4?
: People seem to be losing common sense when it comes to
: Microsoft.


--
telnet to zpbbs.dhs.org

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 64.252.95.167]
发信人: amnesia (Hua Hi Lo Ho), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: hypocrisy of sun
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Tue Apr  3 12:07:28 2001), 站内信件

you are kidding me
Solaris is proprietary, so is Java. On the contrary, XML, SOAP, UDDI, C# are
all open standard which are the backbone of MS .NET.

【 在 ayanami (我是可爱的男甲亢) 的大作中提到: 】
: And one more thing, Sun's technology doesn't use prioprietry format and tries
: to make competitor's product useless by changing the format in every update
: release. Try to make windows 2000 compatible with Samba is a pain, and talking
: about intentionally designed...
: 【 在 qili (qili) 的大作中提到: 】
: : Sun drove MIPS out of business, and rendered SGI irrelevant
: : in the high-end servers market. Some Sun ads touting Sun
: : servers being the backbone of the .com surgence.
: : the opposite. Cats is only shown at one theater at a given
: : time. so there is a 100% monopoly and no substitute. The
: : same would be true for recording labels too.
: : Other examples would be utilities (try to ask your
: : electricity supplier to put in your-brand of transformers),
: : patented technology, Apple, etc.
: : Or take Intel for example. Ask yourself why you would not
: : have a chance to ask Intel to use AMD FPU in P4?
: : People seem to be losing common sense when it comes to
: : Microsoft.


--
it's not that i cant live without you
it's just that i dont even want to try

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 131.107.3.79]
发信人: ayanami (我是可爱的男甲亢), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: hypocrisy of sun
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Tue Apr  3 13:08:56 2001), 转信


You are kidding me!
YOu are comparing orange and apple. Solaris is as proprietary as Windows OS.
I am not talking about the OS here. Use an example of Word document.. and the
file format outlook express stores emails in.

【 在 amnesia (Hua Hi Lo Ho) 的大作中提到: 】
: you are kidding me
: Solaris is proprietary, so is Java. On the contrary, XML, SOAP, UDDI, C# are
: all open standard which are the backbone of MS .NET.
: 【 在 ayanami (我是可爱的男甲亢) 的大作中提到: 】
: : And one more thing, Sun's technology doesn't use prioprietry format and tries
: : to make competitor's product useless by changing the format in every update
: : release. Try to make windows 2000 compatible with Samba is a pain, and talking
: : about intentionally designed...


--
telnet to zpbbs.dhs.org

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 64.252.95.167]
发信人: whh (大不了爱吃爱吃), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: hypocrisy of sun
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Tue Apr  3 14:16:20 2001), 站内信件


【 在 qili (qili) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 whh (大不了爱吃爱吃) 的大作中提到: 】
: : Is Sun a monopoly? I have never commented on Sun's bundling before.
: Sun drove MIPS out of business, and rendered SGI irrelevant
: in the high-end servers market. Some Sun ads touting Sun
: servers being the backbone of the .com surgence.

Look at Sun's market share at any segment, high-end or mid-end, it has
a lot of competitors: HP, IBM, Fujistu, SGI, etc. It is not a monopoly. Period.

: : Does Broadway intentionally hurt competition to launch any "Cat" show anywhere?
: the opposite. Cats is only shown at one theater at a given
: time. so there is a 100% monopoly and no substitute. The
: same would be true for recording labels too.

I am not talking about monopoly here - does broadway intentionally prevents
others launching the show?

: : I haven't found anything any closer to MS's case yet.
: Other examples would be utilities (try to ask your
: electricity supplier to put in your-brand of transformers),
: patented technology, Apple, etc.

I can choose my electricty company. Many utilities are regulated.

: Or take Intel for example. Ask yourself why you would not
: have a chance to ask Intel to use AMD FPU in P4?
: People seem to be losing common sense when it comes to
: Microsoft.

Why DOJ targeted MS not Intel, Cisco, etc.? MS people should ask themselves
this question by not pointing fingers to others like they are victims of
conspiracy. MS people always say their success brings anti-MS sentiment.
Think about it again, there are more successful companies now and then. It
is MS's way of doing bussiness that brings it down, not others. The only
one to blame is MS itself.

Personally, I think MS's products are pretty good in the market, especially
its apps when its competitors disappear due to various reasons.

--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 128.107.148.80]
发信人: qili (qili), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: hypocrisy of sun
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Tue Apr  3 16:16:45 2001) WWW-POST

【 在 whh (大不了爱吃爱吃) 的大作中提到: 】
: Look at Sun's market share at any segment, high-end or mid-end, it has
: a lot of competitors: HP, IBM, Fujistu, SGI, etc. It is not a monopoly. Period.

Also look at Microsoft's market, it has lots of competitors:
from the
Microsoft-killer of Linux, Desktop-killer of Network PC /
Java / networked
appliances, to small specialized OS like QNX, BSD, or Be, to
list a few.

Does that invalidate Microsoft's monopoly?

: : : Does Broadway intentionally hurt competition to launch any "Cat" show anywhere?
: : the opposite. Cats is only shown at one theater at a given
: : time. so there is a 100% monopoly and no substitute. The
: : same would be true for recording labels too.
:
: I am not talking about monopoly here - does broadway intentionally prevents
: others launching the show?

I thought if you have 100% of a market, you are monopoly
(tho. that standard
is a little bit of loose when it comes to Microsoft). Try to
launch
a Cats show and see your pants being sued off
(figuratively).

: : Other examples would be utilities (try to ask your
: : electricity supplier to put in your-brand of transformers),
: : patented technology, Apple, etc.
:
: I can choose my electricty company. Many utilities are regulated.

But I bet that you cannot specify what transformers your
utility uses, or what kinds of wires it hooks to your house,
or at what voltage the electricity is distributed to you.
And we all know that none of the above is essential to
the grid. so why couldn't we ask them to change to your
spec?

: Why DOJ targeted MS not Intel, Cisco, etc.?

Because of jealousy? or ill advises from Microsoft haters
who themselves practice what you despised of in court? or
simply loser mentality / sour
grapes?

: Personally, I think MS's products are pretty good in the market, especially
: its apps when its competitors disappear due to various reasons.

Apparently, thousands of consumers agree with you.


--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 204.60.124.22]
发信人: whh (大不了爱吃爱吃), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: hypocrisy of sun
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Tue Apr  3 19:26:32 2001), 站内信件


【 在 qili (qili) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 whh (大不了爱吃爱吃) 的大作中提到: 】
: : Look at Sun's market share at any segment, high-end or mid-end, it has
: : a lot of competitors: HP, IBM, Fujistu, SGI, etc. It is not a monopoly. Period.
: Also look at Microsoft's market, it has lots of competitors:
: from the
: Microsoft-killer of Linux, Desktop-killer of Network PC /
: Java / networked
: appliances, to small specialized OS like QNX, BSD, or Be, to
: list a few.
: Does that invalidate Microsoft's monopoly?

What are their respective market shares?

: But I bet that you cannot specify what transformers your
: utility uses, or what kinds of wires it hooks to your house,
: or at what voltage the electricity is distributed to you.
: And we all know that none of the above is essential to
: the grid. so why couldn't we ask them to change to your
: spec?

If you have enough consumers demanding that, why not?

: : Why DOJ targeted MS not Intel, Cisco, etc.?
: Because of jealousy? or ill advises from Microsoft haters
: who themselves practice what you despised of in court? or
: simply loser mentality / sour
: grapes?

Why losers of Intel, Cisco do not behave that way? Why DOJ believe losers
of MS?

: : Personally, I think MS's products are pretty good in the market, especially
: : its apps when its competitors disappear due to various reasons.
: Apparently, thousands of consumers agree with you.


--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 128.107.148.80]
发信人: qili (qili), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: hypocrisy of sun
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Tue Apr  3 20:32:32 2001), 站内信件

【 在 whh (大不了爱吃爱吃) 的大作中提到: 】
: What are their respective market shares?

I would guess that Microsoft has a 90%+ share of the market. I
will figure out how big of a share Sun has tomorrow.

Regardless, where is the cut off number? why?

: If you have enough consumers demanding that, why not?

Is there enough consumer demanding removing IE? If not,
why should we care?

: Why losers of Intel, Cisco do not behave that way? Why DOJ believe losers
: of MS?

because they are doo dumb to ask the government to help them win
where they are beat in the marketplace.


--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 209.246.70.18]
发信人: whh (大不了爱吃爱吃), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: hypocrisy of sun
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Tue Apr  3 21:19:57 2001), 站内信件


【 在 qili (qili) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 whh (大不了爱吃爱吃) 的大作中提到: 】
: : What are their respective market shares?
: I would guess that Microsoft has a 90%+ share of the market. I
: will figure out how big of a share Sun has tomorrow.
: Regardless, where is the cut off number? why?

Well, the number could mean different things to different people. While
MS denies 90% is not a monopoly, most others do.

: : If you have enough consumers demanding that, why not?
: Is there enough consumer demanding removing IE? If not,
: why should we care?

Consumers are usually lazy to complain about inconvenience unless they
are really annoyed.

: : Why losers of Intel, Cisco do not behave that way? Why DOJ believe losers
: : of MS?
: because they are doo dumb to ask the government to help them win
: where they are beat in the marketplace.

Really?

--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 128.107.148.80]
发信人: qili (qili), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: hypocrisy of sun
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Apr  4 09:35:18 2001) WWW-POST

【 在 whh (大不了爱吃爱吃) 的大作中提到: 】
: : Regardless, where is the cut off number? why?
:
: Well, the number could mean different things to different people. While
: MS denies 90% is not a monopoly, most others do.

so next time, rather than going to an expensive and time
consuming trail, the
parties should just ask you if a particular entity is a
monopoly and be
done with it, :)

: : Is there enough consumer demanding removing IE? If not,
: : why should we care?
:
: Consumers are usually lazy to complain about inconvenience unless they
: are really annoyed.

so if an inconvenience is NOT really annoying and most
consumers are
unconcerned, why pay attention to it?


--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 204.60.124.22]
发信人: whh (大不了爱吃爱吃), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: hypocrisy of sun
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Apr  4 14:00:35 2001), 站内信件


【 在 qili (qili) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 whh (大不了爱吃爱吃) 的大作中提到: 】
: : Well, the number could mean different things to different people. While
: : MS denies 90% is not a monopoly, most others do.
: so next time, rather than going to an expensive and time
: consuming trail, the
: parties should just ask you if a particular entity is a
: monopoly and be
: done with it, :)

Ask anyone except MS executives,:)

: : Consumers are usually lazy to complain about inconvenience unless they
: : are really annoyed.
: so if an inconvenience is NOT really annoying and most
: consumers are
: unconcerned, why pay attention to it?

You must know the story that if you don't pay attention to something bad
happening to others around you, the same thing will be haunting you later.

--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 128.107.148.80]

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