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Ellison predicts shrinking softwar

发信人: dapengz (神啊, 救救我吧~~~~), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Ellison predicts shrinking software market
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Mon Apr 23 23:57:39 2001) WWW-POST

i rarely agree with ellison, but i discover that i like him
more and more.  he is a visionary, just like bill gates, but
he is more outspoken nowadays...

-------------------------------------------
Ellison predicts shrinking software market
By Wylie Wong
Staff Writer, CNET News.com
April 23, 2001, 6:30 p.m. PT
http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1004-200-5702448.html?tag=prntfr

REDWOOD SHORES, Calif.--Oracle Chief Executive Larry Ellison
on Monday said the economy won't improve until year's end at
the earliest--and he predicted the software market will
consolidate, including the potential demise of Commerce One
and Ariba.

"We have such a conspicuous slowdown, it almost feels like,
especially for my industry, we've been in a recession for a
long time," Ellison said during a press conference at
company headquarters here. "When will we resume normal
growth is anybody's guess. I think by the end of the
calendar year or the end of the first quarter next year."

Ellison declined to comment on the company's current
financial quarter, but added that Oracle is in a better
position than others to weather the cooling U.S. economy.
When the economy improves, Oracle has many customers that
will spend considerable amounts on software, he said.

"The companies that weren't uplifted by the false Internet
phenomenon should do better," Ellison said. "Cisco has a
huge problem (because the) bulk of their business is telcos
and enterprises connecting to the Net. We're much more
diversified. We had dot-com customers and ASPs (application
service providers that rent software over the Web). But that
was only 15 percent of our business."

Besides talking about the economy, Ellison trumpeted
Oracle's e-business software, the Oracle 11i e-business
suite, as a one-size-fits-all package for managing a
company's marketing, sales force, manufacturing, financials
and Internet-based activities.

Ellison, who has long argued for simplicity in computing,
said businesses now want an all-in-one package because it's
simpler and cheaper. Companies don't want to have to piece
together different software products from different
companies and attempt to glue them together, he added.

In giving Microsoft a rare compliment, Ellison said
Microsoft was smart in bundling word processing, spreadsheet
and presentation graphics software into Microsoft Office.

"Microsoft got it right," he said. "If you look at the
history of the PC software industry, there are no
spreadsheet vendors. There are no word processing vendors.
There's an Office suite vendor."

Because of that reasoning, Ellison believes Commerce One and
Ariba may not survive as standalone players in the
e-business software market. Ellison said companies that
offer a full range of business software, such as rival SAP,
will survive, but that smaller companies, such as Commerce
One and Ariba, will not because they don't offer a suite of
products.

Commerce One and Ariba develop software that helps link
companies with their suppliers, customers and partners
through online marketplaces and trading exchanges. They may
be bought out by larger companies, or potentially become bit
players, Ellison said.

"Since they're doing a tiny fragment of the job, I don't
think there will be many small component suppliers that will
survive this shakeout," he said. "People like to get all the
pieces that fit together. SAP will certainly be a survivor.
But tiny components suppliers will not be--Ariba, Commerce
One."

Ariba and Commerce One representatives could not be reached
for immediate comment.

Ellison said the company on Tuesday will announce a new
software and service package that promises that Oracle will
install its Customer Resource Planning (CRM) software in 90
days. And if Oracle misses the deadline, the company will
pay for all consulting costs after the 90 days, he said.

Taking into consideration the new 90-day guarantee, Oracle
will be able to install software much faster than rivals
Siebel and PeopleSoft, Ellison said.

He also added that the company will offer a similar 30-day
guarantee for its e-business software that automates the
buying of products from suppliers and partners. Ellison also
said Oracle will release on May 15 its next-generation 9i
database, the company's flagship software that stores and
collects corporate and Web data.

--
There are three kinds of persons on this planet.  Those who can count and
those who can't.

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: sfwka.stanford.]
发信人: magicfat (魔法胖子~missing my Friend), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: Ellison predicts shrinking software market
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Tue Apr 24 03:09:03 2001), 站内信件


I never liked him, nor McNealy, since those two started
boasting NC and java.

【 在 dapengz (神啊, 救救我吧~~~~) 的大作中提到: 】
: i rarely agree with ellison, but i discover that i like him
: more and more.  he is a visionary, just like bill gates, but
: he is more outspoken nowadays...
: -------------------------------------------

--
他号令便号令好了,又何必安静?

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 38.204.0.2]
发信人: loggie (二黑 满山红叶 沧桑为谁), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: Ellison predicts shrinking software market
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Tue Apr 24 03:20:23 2001), 转信

bill once boasted about "information at your tip", then got hit right on
the nose with netscape navigator. after that he stopped meaningless hyping,
making him more of a realworld geek.

【 在 magicfat (魔法胖子~missing my Friend) 的大作中提到: 】
: I never liked him, nor McNealy, since those two started
: boasting NC and java.
: 【 在 dapengz (神啊, 救救我吧~~~~) 的大作中提到: 】
: : i rarely agree with ellison, but i discover that i like him
: : more and more.  he is a visionary, just like bill gates, but
: : he is more outspoken nowadays...
: : -------------------------------------------


--
厚积薄发, 秉诚度世

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 128.107.248.220]
发信人: magicfat (魔法胖子~missing my Friend), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: Ellison predicts shrinking software market
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Tue Apr 24 03:34:22 2001), 站内信件

【 在 loggie (二黑 满山红叶 沧桑为谁) 的大作中提到: 】
: bill once boasted about "information at your tip", then got hit right on
: the nose with netscape navigator. after that he stopped meaningless hyping,
: making him more of a realworld geek.

"information at your fingertips" wasn't not a hype on any particular
products. it might be true that BG meant to promote MS products, but
the tagline itself does present some vision that is proven
to be very insightful by today's Internet especially wireless technology.

--
他号令便号令好了,又何必安静?

※ 修改:.magicfat 于 Apr 24 03:35:11 修改本文.[FROM: 38.204.0.2]
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 38.204.0.2]
发信人: loggie (二黑 满山红叶 沧桑为谁), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: Ellison predicts shrinking software market
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Tue Apr 24 14:40:14 2001), 转信

"information at your tips" may have some deeper impact on what billg thought
of future personal computing. but at that time, billg is trying to sell win95
beyond windows 4.0. he mentioned this strategy on win95 in networld+interop
and tried to convice people that win95 solely can do that.

then started the famous "navigator vs explorer" war. good(or bad) thing is
that billg is really quick at catchup and utilize the MSFT's power.

nc is larry's fancy toy, it never sells. java is a smartass though.

【 在 magicfat (魔法胖子~missing my Friend) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 loggie (二黑 满山红叶 沧桑为谁) 的大作中提到: 】
: : bill once boasted about "information at your tip", then got hit right on
: : the nose with netscape navigator. after that he stopped meaningless hyping,
: : making him more of a realworld geek.
: "information at your fingertips" wasn't not a hype on any particular
: products. it might be true that BG meant to promote MS products, but
: the tagline itself does present some vision that is proven
: to be very insightful by today's Internet especially wireless technology.


--
厚积薄发, 秉诚度世

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 171.71.55.75]
发信人: qili (qili), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: Ellison predicts shrinking software market
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Tue Apr 24 16:55:04 2001), 站内信件

【 在 loggie (二黑 满山红叶 沧桑为谁) 的大作中提到: 】
: nc is larry's fancy toy, it never sells. java is a smartass though.

I kind of think NC is too ahead of its time, and may represent
the future of "networking": small, smart devices distributed
over a network, each performs a dedicated function, vs. a
powerful generic computer that does it all.

In that world, high speed wideband networks are a must. and
we just may get that a few years down the road.

--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 205.173.93.41]
发信人: ayanami (我是可爱的男甲亢), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: Ellison predicts shrinking software market
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Tue Apr 24 17:52:50 2001), 转信

【 在 qili (qili) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 loggie (二黑 满山红叶 沧桑为谁) 的大作中提到: 】
: : nc is larry's fancy toy, it never sells. java is a smartass though.
: I kind of think NC is too ahead of its time, and may represent
:  the future of "networking": small, smart devices distributed
What kind of small/smart device are you talking about? Embed device? or a
termina like thing?

: over a network, each performs a dedicated function, vs. a
: powerful generic computer that does it all.
: In that world, high speed wideband networks are a must. and
: we just may get that a few years down the road.
Like Bill Gates, Larry speaks only propagandas. There is no like predictions
from their mouth, only propagands to drive people to buy their products.


--
telnet to zpbbs.dhs.org

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 64.252.95.167]
发信人: qili (qili), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: Ellison predicts shrinking software market
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Tue Apr 24 19:58:28 2001), 站内信件

【 在 ayanami (我是可爱的男甲亢) 的大作中提到: 】
: What kind of small/smart device are you talking about? Embed device? or a
: termina like thing?

could be anything that's smart enough and has a need to communicate
with others.

Take your home for example. Before you go home, you can call your
phone to tell it which train  you're taking and whom you are
bringing home for dinner. the phone communicates the favorite
lighting them to the lighting system, sends energy saving adjustments
to the a/c system, selects your favorite DVD to play for the night,
etc.

: Like Bill Gates, Larry speaks only propagandas. There is no like predictions
: from their mouth, only propagands to drive people to buy their products.

while there are certain truth to your statement, I would not write them off
completely. The NC thing is pretty visionary, as is Microsoft's push into
the embedded computing.

Whether they can make it, or how they implement their vision, is
another topic of discussion.

--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 209.246.82.120]
发信人: whh (大不了爱吃爱吃), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: Ellison predicts shrinking software market
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Tue Apr 24 21:31:43 2001), 站内信件

Bill and Larry make a perfect couple if either of them can change sex.

【 在 ayanami (我是可爱的男甲亢) 的大作中提到: 】
: Like Bill Gates, Larry speaks only propagandas. There is no like predictions
: from their mouth, only propagands to drive people to buy their products.


--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 128.107.148.80]
发信人: devil (闲人), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: Ellison predicts shrinking software market
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Apr 25 11:13:12 2001), 站内信件

oh, yeah ~~
guess Larry can do it now, cause it will be covered by MedCare in SF

;pp

【 在 whh (大不了爱吃爱吃) 的大作中提到: 】
: Bill and Larry make a perfect couple if either of them can change sex.
: 【 在 ayanami (我是可爱的男甲亢) 的大作中提到: 】
: : Like Bill Gates, Larry speaks only propagandas. There is no like predictions
: : from their mouth, only propagands to drive people to buy their products.


--
        If something you can not make it.... fake it!

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 128.107.248.220]
发信人: magicfat (魔法胖子~missing my Friend), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: Ellison predicts shrinking software market
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Apr 25 16:50:43 2001), 站内信件

【 在 qili (qili) 的大作中提到: 】
: could be anything that's smart enough and has a need to communicate
: with others.
: Take your home for example. Before you go home, you can call your
: phone to tell it which train  you're taking and whom you are
: bringing home for dinner. the phone communicates the favorite
: lighting them to the lighting system, sends energy saving adjustments
: to the a/c system, selects your favorite DVD to play for the night,
: etc.

I agree with you on small and smart appliances have a bright future,
but I don't think they will eventually replace PC.  Also, they are
quite different from what the concept of NC suggests.

The reason why I don't see generic PCs being replaced any time soon,
is that an entirely distributed environment (as you suggested in your
homd example) consisting of all autonomous devices would be too
hard to implement, technology wise, and too expensive to sell,
market wise.  It makes sense to have some device play the role
of coordinator, arbitrator, router, etc.  Such a device would have to
be able to provide enough computing power.  It is apparently
that today's generic PC is quite sutable, and will evolve into
this (relatively) central role.

--
他号令便号令好了,又何必安静?

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 38.204.0.2]
发信人: qili (qili), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: Ellison predicts shrinking software market
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Apr 25 17:28:59 2001), 站内信件

【 在 magicfat (魔法胖子~missing my Friend) 的大作中提到: 】
: I agree with you on small and smart appliances have a bright future,
: but I don't think they will eventually replace PC.  Also, they are
: quite different from what the concept of NC suggests.

I don't think smart appliances will eventually replace PCs either,
not in the near future at least. However, I think the concept
of NC is very good - it highlights the nature of networked environment
which takes away an important element of standard PC: warehousing
software / data locally.

: The reason why I don't see generic PCs being replaced any time soon,
: is that an entirely distributed environment (as you suggested in your
: homd example) consisting of all autonomous devices would be too
: hard to implement, technology wise, and too expensive to sell,
: market wise. 

agreed. However, sooner or later, technology will be there, as will
demand. Think about projecting a client/server platform in the 50/60s.

: It makes sense to have some device play the role
: of coordinator, arbitrator, router, etc.  Such a device would have to
: be able to provide enough computing power.  It is apparently
: that today's generic PC is quite sutable, and will evolve into
: this (relatively) central role.

It is not clear to me that we need that "central role" from hardware
point of view: conceivably, a network of small appliances would work
just fine without a central coordinator. The internet for example works
quite well without one central computer.

However, I would concede that certain jobs are best performed by
PCs/NCs: home computing, grahics design, etc. where considerably
user creativity is required, or a routine task is rare.

The biggest hurdle PCs face in penetrating the last household is
their dissimilarity to household appliances. When I plug in
my TV (itself a complicated computer), I expect it to work right
away. Today's PCs need constant care and extensive maintenance.
Until we "appliancelize" our PCs, they are not to be most
households. NCs, in my view, represent an important step
in that direction.

--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 205.173.93.39]
发信人: magicfat (魔法胖子~missing my Friend), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: Ellison predicts shrinking software market
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Apr 25 18:26:59 2001), 站内信件

【 在 qili (qili) 的大作中提到: 】
: I don't think smart appliances will eventually replace PCs either,
: not in the near future at least. However, I think the concept
: of NC is very good - it highlights the nature of networked environment
: which takes away an important element of standard PC: warehousing
: software / data locally.

I don't see why this concept
is appealing to me or any typical user..
What does it buy us?  Why would I want to pay for the huge bandwidth
and possibly also some rental for server processing time and space
while a powerful PC can handle it locally?  How could I trust
my data is secure out there?  How could I trust the availability
of the server?

The essential point is, this concept of NC is against the trend.
The trend is,computing power is becoming more and more inexpensive,
and more available.

: agreed. However, sooner or later, technology will be there, as will
: demand. Think about projecting a client/server platform in the 50/60s.

: It is not clear to me that we need that "central role" from hardware
: point of view: conceivably, a network of small appliances would work
: just fine without a central coordinator. The internet for example works
: quite well without one central computer.

That's why I put down "relatively".  The Internet itself is exactly
a good example supporting my approach.  There is not one central computer,
but there are a bunch of them!  You always need a generic computer
to handle some common tasks.  e.g, it is cool to have your appliances
all connected to the Internet and standing by for any remote
requests from you, but would you expose your refrigerater or your
A/C directly on the Internet?  And would you want to pay for the extra
effort to enable every appliance to talk each one another directly
while you can simply have a central PC to coordinate them.  Actually
in this sense, PC is not an appropriate term any more, maybe we should
call it HBC - HomeBase Computer.

: The biggest hurdle PCs face in penetrating the last household is
: their dissimilarity to household appliances. When I plug in

I agree with you that that is the biggest hurdle.  But I believe
the real solution is to keep improving our software to make it
more powerful and more friendly, but we shouldn't try to solve
(actually walk around) the problem by break generic things into
specialized parts.

The original TV can apparently only receive signals from the station
through the air.
Later on people invented other means of receiving signals --
cable, satellite, as well as other means of TV-based entertainment
-- VCR, console games, etc.  So how people made changes to the original
TV to accommendate those new inventions?  Did they come up with
"specialized appliances" which is very easy to use but can only handle
one of the above tasks?  No, they improved the *interface* so that
people can easily plug in any of the above, and switch between them
easily through a cute remote control.

And what is the interface between human being and a PC?  the software!

: my TV (itself a complicated computer), I expect it to work right
: away. Today's PCs need constant care and extensive maintenance.
: Until we "appliancelize" our PCs, they are not to be most
: households. NCs, in my view, represent an important step
: in that direction.


--
他号令便号令好了,又何必安静?

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 38.204.0.2]
发信人: loggie (二黑 满山红叶 沧桑为谁), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: Ellison predicts shrinking software market
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Apr 25 20:09:28 2001), 转信

One way to achieve the uPnP, or what u referred as HBC, could be the software
subscription service(like ASP for personal users)

u bot a naked smartapplicance, hooked it onto the net, did some selection
and it would download all stuff it need to perform its designed purpose.

here could be something called a residential gateway to do proxying job,
hiding the privacy info from the vendors, storing the data for all smart
applicance in the house. today's PC could find this role easier to fit.

i would think "thin applicances, fat gateway" is the best way to digitize
a home.

【 在 magicfat (魔法胖子~missing my Friend) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 qili (qili) 的大作中提到: 】
: : I don't think smart appliances will eventually replace PCs either,
: : not in the near future at least. However, I think the concept
: : of NC is very good - it highlights the nature of networked environment
: : which takes away an important element of standard PC: warehousing
: : software / data locally.
: I don't see why this concept
:  is appealing to me or any typical user..
: What does it buy us?  Why would I want to pay for the huge bandwidth
: and possibly also some rental for server processing time and space
: while a powerful PC can handle it locally?  How could I trust
: my data is secure out there?  How could I trust the availability
: of the server?
: The essential point is, this concept of NC is against the trend.
: The trend is,computing power is becoming more and more inexpensive,
: and more available.
: : agreed. However, sooner or later, technology will be there, as will
: : demand. Think about projecting a client/server platform in the 50/60s.
: : It is not clear to me that we need that "central role" from hardware
: : point of view: conceivably, a network of small appliances would work
: : just fine without a central coordinator. The internet for example works
: : quite well without one central computer.
: That's why I put down "relatively".  The Internet itself is exactly
: a good example supporting my approach.  There is not one central computer,
: but there are a bunch of them!  You always need a generic computer
: to handle some common tasks.  e.g, it is cool to have your appliances
: all connected to the Internet and standing by for any remote
: requests from you, but would you expose your refrigerater or your
: A/C directly on the Internet?  And would you want to pay for the extra
: effort to enable every appliance to talk each one another directly
: while you can simply have a central PC to coordinate them.  Actually
: in this sense, PC is not an appropriate term any more, maybe we should
: call it HBC - HomeBase Computer.
: : The biggest hurdle PCs face in penetrating the last household is
: : their dissimilarity to household appliances. When I plug in
: I agree with you that that is the biggest hurdle.  But I believe
: the real solution is to keep improving our software to make it
: more powerful and more friendly, but we shouldn't try to solve
: (actually walk around) the problem by break generic things into
: specialized parts.
: The original TV can apparently only receive signals from the station
: through the air.
: Later on people invented other means of receiving signals --
: cable, satellite, as well as other means of TV-based entertainment
: -- VCR, console games, etc.  So how people made changes to the original
: TV to accommendate those new inventions?  Did they come up with
: "specialized appliances" which is very easy to use but can only handle
: one of the above tasks?  No, they improved the *interface* so that
: people can easily plug in any of the above, and switch between them
: easily through a cute remote control.
: And what is the interface between human being and a PC?  the software!
: : my TV (itself a complicated computer), I expect it to work right
: : away. Today's PCs need constant care and extensive maintenance.
: : Until we "appliancelize" our PCs, they are not to be most
: : households. NCs, in my view, represent an important step
: : in that direction.


--
厚积薄发, 秉诚度世

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 171.71.55.75]
发信人: qili (qili), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: Ellison predicts shrinking software market
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Apr 25 20:32:15 2001), 站内信件

【 在 magicfat (魔法胖子~missing my Friend) 的大作中提到: 】
: I don't see why this concept
:  is appealing to me or any typical user..

in lots of ways. for beginners, one doesn't need to worry about
upgrading software, testing new patches, or debugging a particular
feature - all of that will be done by the remote "host" in
an expert way.

: The essential point is, this concept of NC is against the trend.
: The trend is,computing power is becoming more and more inexpensive,
: and more available.

I am not sure what the trend is or if against it is wrong per se. To
me, the proliferation of inexpensive computing power means more
smart devices (hopefully linked in a way to facilitate communications).

there are a few examples are quite against the trend you mentioned.
ASP and server farms for example, with the former being an outsourced
(per use) software example, and the 2nd being an outsourced hardware example.

and the .net iniatiative and Apple's integrated internet services (with
OS X) are two other examples that may help shape the future.

However, there is no assurance that either will be successful.

: That's why I put down "relatively".  The Internet itself is exactly
: a good example supporting my approach.  There is not one central computer,
: but there are a bunch of them!  You always need a generic computer

that (the internet being distributed) means that is no longer a need
for a central computer / coordinator which was your theme a
few posts earlier.

: to handle some common tasks.  e.g, it is cool to have your appliances
: all connected to the Internet and standing by for any remote
: requests from you, but would you expose your refrigerater or your
: A/C directly on the Internet?  And would you want to pay for the extra
: effort to enable every appliance to talk each one another directly
: while you can simply have a central PC to coordinate them.  Actually
: in this sense, PC is not an appropriate term any more, maybe we should
: call it HBC - HomeBase Computer.

in that world, I don't know if you have to have a central computer.
For example, I am learning industrial automation where there usually
aren't a central computer. But lots of single board computer (SBC)
or embedded devices communicating via a backbone (VME or CPCI), or
a networking protocol (ethernet). It is entirely possible (and
maybe probable) that the future home networking will take similar
shape.

: The original TV can apparently only receive signals from the station
: through the air.
: Later on people invented other means of receiving signals --
: cable, satellite, as well as other means of TV-based entertainment
: -- VCR, console games, etc.  So how people made changes to the original
: TV to accommendate those new inventions?  Did they come up with
: "specialized appliances" which is very easy to use but can only handle
: one of the above tasks?  No, they improved the *interface* so that

have you seen a TV that by its own handles all those signal sources?
No. Instead, people got different, specialized devices that process
different signals into a commonly understood signal (composite or
s-video, which functions like the backbone or networking protocol
mentioned before).

I firmly believe that PC as we know it today has a limited role
in our future (20-30 years out?) for the reasons we talked about.

--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 209.246.75.25]
发信人: qili (qili), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: Ellison predicts shrinking software market
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Apr 25 20:39:21 2001), 站内信件

【 在 loggie (二黑 满山红叶 沧桑为谁) 的大作中提到: 】
: u bot a naked smartapplicance, hooked it onto the net, did some selection
: and it would download all stuff it need to perform its designed purpose.

to some extend, the Tivo-type services are like that: witht he right
hardware/software combination, one can find a lot other applications for that
thing, as is a PS2/XBox.

: here could be something called a residential gateway to do proxying job,
: hiding the privacy info from the vendors, storing the data for all smart
: applicance in the house. today's PC could find this role easier to fit.

I agree. that would seem to be the most likely role for a PC in the near
future (5-years?). In that capacity, it may not look like anything
we know today.

: i would think "thin applicances, fat gateway" is the best way to digitize
: a home.

The thin appliances part I like.

The interesting implication for this whole discussion is that there will
be an extremely bright future for PC security companies (like CHKP).

--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 209.246.75.25]
发信人: ayanami (我是可爱的男甲亢), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: Ellison predicts shrinking software market
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Apr 25 23:12:41 2001) WWW-POST

【 在 loggie (二黑 满山红叶 沧桑为谁) 的大作中提到: 】
: One way to achieve the uPnP, or what u referred as HBC, could be the software
: subscription service(like ASP for personal users)
:
: u bot a naked smartapplicance, hooked it onto the net, did some selection
: and it would download all stuff it need to perform its designed purpose.
:
: here could be something called a residential gateway to do proxying job,
: hiding the privacy info from the vendors, storing the data for all smart
: applicance in the house. today's PC could find this role easier to fit.
:

I wouldn't trust any PC with any kind of operating system
that I am able to afford to store important information to
control like my microwave, refrig, and lighting or even my
door. I can't imagine what would happen if it crashes or
gets hacked.

: i would think "thin applicances, fat gateway" is the best way to digitize
: a home.
:
thin appliance, thin gateway is the best way to digitize a
home. The fatter the gateway is, the more potential holes
there are waiting for to be exploited.

: 【 在 magicfat (魔法胖子~missing my Friend) 的大作中提到: 】
: : 【 在 qili (qili) 的大作中提到: 】
: : : I don't think smart appliances will eventually replace PCs either,
: : : not in the near future at least. However, I think the concept
: : : of NC is very good - it highlights the nature of networked environment
: : : which takes away an important element of standard PC: warehousing
: : : software / data locally.
: : I don't see why this concept
: :  is appealing to me or any typical user..
: : What does it buy us?  Why would I want to pay for the huge bandwidth
: : and possibly also some rental for server processing time and space
: : while a powerful PC can handle it locally?  How could I trust
: : my data is secure out there?  How could I trust the availability
: : of the server?
: : The essential point is, this concept of NC is against the trend.
: : The trend is,computing power is becoming more and more inexpensive,
: : and more available.
: : : agreed. However, sooner or later, technology will be there, as will
: : : demand. Think about projecting a client/server platform in the 50/60s.
: : : It is not clear to me that we need that "central role" from hardware
: : : point of view: conceivably, a network of small appliances would work
: : : just fine without a central coordinator. The internet for example works
: : : quite well without one central computer.
: : That's why I put down "relatively".  The Internet itself is exactly
: : a good example supporting my approach.  There is not one central computer,
: : but there are a bunch of them!  You always need a generic computer
: : to handle some common tasks.  e.g, it is cool to have your appliances
: : all connected to the Internet and standing by for any remote
: : requests from you, but would you expose your refrigerater or your
: : A/C directly on the Internet?  And would you want to pay for the extra
: : effort to enable every appliance to talk each one another directly
: : while you can simply have a central PC to coordinate them.  Actually
: : in this sense, PC is not an appropriate term any more, maybe we should
: : call it HBC - HomeBase Computer.
: : : The biggest hurdle PCs face in penetrating the last household is
: : : their dissimilarity to household appliances. When I plug in
: : I agree with you that that is the biggest hurdle.  But I believe
: : the real solution is to keep improving our software to make it
: : more powerful and more friendly, but we shouldn't try to solve
: : (actually walk around) the problem by break generic things into
: : specialized parts.
: : The original TV can apparently only receive signals from the station
: : through the air.
: : Later on people invented other means of receiving signals --
: : cable, satellite, as well as other means of TV-based entertainment
: : -- VCR, console games, etc.  So how people made changes to the original
: : TV to accommendate those new inventions?  Did they come up with
: : "specialized appliances" which is very easy to use but can only handle
: : one of the above tasks?  No, they improved the *interface* so that
: : people can easily plug in any of the above, and switch between them
: : easily through a cute remote control.
: : And what is the interface between human being and a PC?  the software!
: : : my TV (itself a complicated computer), I expect it to work right
: : : away. Today's PCs need constant care and extensive maintenance.
: : : Until we "appliancelize" our PCs, they are not to be most
: : : households. NCs, in my view, represent an important step
: : : in that direction.
:
:

--
telnet to zpbbs.dhs.org

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: sdn-ar-002ctsta]
发信人: ayanami (我是可爱的男甲亢), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: Ellison predicts shrinking software market
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Apr 25 23:28:02 2001) WWW-POST

【 在 qili (qili) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 magicfat (魔法胖子~missing my Friend) 的大作中提到: 】
: : I don't see why this concept
: :  is appealing to me or any typical user..
:
: in lots of ways. for beginners, one doesn't need to worry about
Do you screw off the bad lightbulb and change a new one?
Upgrading the "thin appliance" does not have to be
complicated. It should be just plug&play. And no, I don't
want anyone to "upgrade" my microwave for me, because I
don't want to call 5 different numbers and hold 60 minutes
to talk to some service professional to help me fix my
microwave.

: upgrading software, testing new patches, or debugging a particular
: feature - all of that will be done by the remote "host" in
: an expert way.
*cough*, debug microwave?

: : The essential point is, this concept of NC is against the trend.
: : The trend is,computing power is becoming more and more inexpensive,
: : and more available.
:
: I am not sure what the trend is or if against it is wrong per se. To
: me, the proliferation of inexpensive computing power means more
: smart devices (hopefully linked in a way to facilitate communications).
Smart devices have fundamental difference with NC. The
reason anyone would advocate the use of NC is that they make
the server softwares.

: there are a few examples are quite against the trend you mentioned.
: ASP and server farms for example, with the former being an outsourced
: (per use) software example, and the 2nd being an outsourced hardware example.
ASP is also different from NC. The reason ASP is "The trend"
right now is because small businesses do not have the
resources to handle the customer/billing/etc problems they
usually face. And outsourcing them is a lot better and cost
effective than doing them in house. But what is the last
time you see a PC that can't handle the daily task a
"beinner" does?

:
: and the .net iniatiative and Apple's integrated internet services (with
: OS X) are two other examples that may help shape the future.
:
: However, there is no assurance that either will be successful.
:
: : That's why I put down "relatively".  The Internet itself is exactly
: : a good example supporting my approach.  There is not one central computer,
: : but there are a bunch of them!  You always need a generic computer
:
: that (the internet being distributed) means that is no longer a need
: for a central computer / coordinator which was your theme a
: few posts earlier.
:
: : to handle some common tasks.  e.g, it is cool to have your appliances
: : all connected to the Internet and standing by for any remote
: : requests from you, but would you expose your refrigerater or your
: : A/C directly on the Internet?  And would you want to pay for the extra
: : effort to enable every appliance to talk each one another directly
: : while you can simply have a central PC to coordinate them.  Actually
: : in this sense, PC is not an appropriate term any more, maybe we should
: : call it HBC - HomeBase Computer.
:
: in that world, I don't know if you have to have a central computer.
: For example, I am learning industrial automation where there usually
: aren't a central computer. But lots of single board computer (SBC)
: or embedded devices communicating via a backbone (VME or CPCI), or
: a networking protocol (ethernet). It is entirely possible (and
: maybe probable) that the future home networking will take similar
: shape.
:
: : The original TV can apparently only receive signals from the station
: : through the air.
: : Later on people invented other means of receiving signals --
: : cable, satellite, as well as other means of TV-based entertainment
: : -- VCR, console games, etc.  So how people made changes to the original
: : TV to accommendate those new inventions?  Did they come up with
: : "specialized appliances" which is very easy to use but can only handle
: : one of the above tasks?  No, they improved the *interface* so that
:
: have you seen a TV that by its own handles all those signal sources?
: No. Instead, people got different, specialized devices that process
: different signals into a commonly understood signal (composite or
: s-video, which functions like the backbone or networking protocol
: mentioned before).
:
: I firmly believe that PC as we know it today has a limited role
: in our future (20-30 years out?) for the reasons we talked about.
:

I don't see how "PC as we know it today..." has anything to
do with TV and industrial automation concept. But PC stands
for personal computer, the thing you are talking about is
quite different.

My PC crashes, but I don't want any of those smart device
crash, ever. I was pretty pissed off when my cellphone
crashed.

--
telnet to zpbbs.dhs.org

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: sdn-ar-002ctsta]
发信人: magicfat (魔法胖子~missing my Friend), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: Ellison predicts shrinking software market
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Apr 26 11:28:42 2001), 站内信件

【 在 loggie (二黑 满山红叶 沧桑为谁) 的大作中提到: 】
: One way to achieve the uPnP, or what u referred as HBC, could be the software
: subscription service(like ASP for personal users)
: u bot a naked smartapplicance, hooked it onto the net, did some selection
: and it would download all stuff it need to perform its designed purpose.
: here could be something called a residential gateway to do proxying job,
: hiding the privacy info from the vendors, storing the data for all smart
: applicance in the house. today's PC could find this role easier to fit.
: i would think "thin applicances, fat gateway" is the best way to digitize
: a home.

That's similar to what I have in my mind. Actually your "fat gateway"
will do a lot of jobs beyond gateway's, so it'll be more like a
generic server.

--
他号令便号令好了,又何必安静?

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 38.204.0.2]
发信人: magicfat (魔法胖子~missing my Friend), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: Ellison predicts shrinking software market
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Apr 26 12:24:42 2001), 站内信件

【 在 qili (qili) 的大作中提到: 】
: in lots of ways. for beginners, one doesn't need to worry about
: upgrading software, testing new patches, or debugging a particular
: feature - all of that will be done by the remote "host" in
: an expert way.

Some of the above should never be exposed to the end users, e.g.
the debugging and testing part.  The others are maintenaince issues, and
should be addressed by improving the UI and underlying software,
rather than forcing the end users to pay extra.

: I am not sure what the trend is or if against it is wrong per se. To
: me, the proliferation of inexpensive computing power means more
: smart devices (hopefully linked in a way to facilitate communications).

We need to differentiate between NC and smart appliances.  those are
different.  In the last post of mine, I was talking about the concept
of NC being against the trend.  smart appliances are not, though.  As
you said, in a sense, they actually reflect the trend.

: there are a few examples are quite against the trend you mentioned.
: ASP and server farms for example, with the former being an outsourced
: (per use) software example, and the 2nd being an outsourced hardware example.

ASP has been around for a couple of years. Did it ever take off?
or is it even taking off?  And why was Microsoft's subscription based Office
server called off?

The point here is that, ASP (as well as other forms of outsourcing)
might be a good way for businesses to reduce cost and
focus more on the core business, but it does not necessarily mean
it will also be a viable model for end users to handle daily work
(and that's what we are discussing here)

Even in the business world, while some outsourcing models
such as server farms work out pretty well, that does not show any
anti-trend, because what server farm buys for small businesses is
not cost-reducing on hardware, nor software, but the maintenance cost
and the expertise, which fits perfectly into the trend of increasing
human expertise cost.

: : That's why I put down "relatively".  The Internet itself is exactly
: : a good example supporting my approach.  There is not one central computer,
: : but there are a bunch of them!  You always need a generic computer
: that (the internet being distributed) means that is no longer a need
: for a central computer / coordinator which was your theme a
: few posts earlier.

*Relatively centralized*! what does "relatively" mean, my friend?
And my theme was in the context of home computing, not the Internet.
You were arguing that we don't need a server in a home computing environment,
because all the smart appliances can work with each other autonomously.
And I was arguing that we will always need a coordinator or some even more
stronger role.

: in that world, I don't know if you have to have a central computer.
: For example, I am learning industrial automation where there usually
: aren't a central computer. But lots of single board computer (SBC)
: or embedded devices communicating via a backbone (VME or CPCI), or
: a networking protocol (ethernet). It is entirely possible (and
: maybe probable) that the future home networking will take similar
: shape.

I doubt there is an analogy between these two.  Because the tasks
a home computing environment needs to be able to handle are usually
much more diversified than a particular industrial automation system.

: have you seen a TV that by its own handles all those signal sources?
: No. Instead, people got different, specialized devices that process
: different signals into a commonly understood signal (composite or
: s-video, which functions like the backbone or networking protocol
: mentioned before).

Well those specialized devices work more like an add-on to a basic
TV unit, rather than replacements to TV.

: I firmly believe that PC as we know it today has a limited role
: in our future (20-30 years out?) for the reasons we talked about.

We might well agree on this one, sir, it all depends on what you mean
by "limited".  8-)

I guess ayanami made a good point in his post that there are a lot of
things we'd rather do locally, and more economically on a generic
PC(or whatever we'll call it 20-30 years down the road)

--
他号令便号令好了,又何必安静?

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 38.204.0.2]
发信人: magicfat (魔法胖子~missing my Friend), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: Ellison predicts shrinking software market
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Apr 26 12:41:29 2001), 站内信件

【 在 ayanami (我是可爱的男甲亢) 的大作中提到: 】
: My PC crashes, but I don't want any of those smart device
: crash, ever. I was pretty pissed off when my cellphone
: crashed.

aya, at that moment of crashing, were you talking sth like
"this crap crashes a lot, i gotta get a new one".
If that's the case, your cellphone might have been
well pissed off... 8->

--
他号令便号令好了,又何必安静?

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 38.204.0.2]
发信人: ayanami (我是可爱的男甲亢), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: Ellison predicts shrinking software market
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Apr 26 12:48:59 2001), 转信

hahahaaa.. sounds like you know my buying habbit. :)

【 在 magicfat (魔法胖子~missing my Friend) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 ayanami (我是可爱的男甲亢) 的大作中提到: 】
: : My PC crashes, but I don't want any of those smart device
: : crash, ever. I was pretty pissed off when my cellphone
: : crashed.
: aya, at that moment of crashing, were you talking sth like
: "this crap crashes a lot, i gotta get a new one".
: If that's the case, your cellphone might have been
: well pissed off... 8->


--
telnet to zpbbs.dhs.org

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 64.252.95.167]
发信人: qili (qili), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: Ellison predicts shrinking software market
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Apr 26 14:05:40 2001), 站内信件

【 在 magicfat (魔法胖子~missing my Friend) 的大作中提到: 】
: Some of the above should never be exposed to the end users, e.g.
: the debugging and testing part.  The others are maintenaince issues, and
: should be addressed by improving the UI and underlying software,
: rather than forcing the end users to pay extra.

By debugging, I meant to find a way to get a feature to work. For example,
I still don't know how the table function works in Excel.

: The point here is that, ASP (as well as other forms of outsourcing)
: might be a good way for businesses to reduce cost and
: focus more on the core business, but it does not necessarily mean
: it will also be a viable model for end users to handle daily work
: (and that's what we are discussing here)

I agree. However, the flip side of that argument is equally strong,
if not stronger. Take the client/server structure against the old centralized
computing platform: the "ASP-ness" of a c/s structure is the outsourcing
of files / storage management functions  to a remote site, for example.

: You were arguing that we don't need a server in a home computing environment,
: because all the smart appliances can work with each other autonomously.

slightly different. I don't think a home computing environment
REQUIRES a central coordinator, even tho. it may function with one.

your statement is a lot stronger than that.

: I doubt there is an analogy between these two.  Because the tasks
: a home computing environment needs to be able to handle are usually
: much more diversified than a particular industrial automation system.

There are considerable similarity between the two. One for the "turn-key"
nature / requirement in both setups, two for the networking requirement
and diversity of devices (thus needs for a communications standard).

: Well those specialized devices work more like an add-on to a basic
: TV unit, rather than replacements to TV.

Well, you had argued that people added features to a TV to handle
those information sources, and I pointed out that that was done
in a distributed / networked way: all the devices transmit information
in a stanard format (one-way network?). I believe that our
future environment will migrate to, rather than adding features
to a central device.

: I guess ayanami made a good point in his post that there are a lot of
: things we'd rather do locally, and more economically on a generic
: PC(or whatever we'll call it 20-30 years down the road)

It is absolutely true that networks will NOT satisfy all of our needs,
and certain jobs are better suited to be done locally.

I think we differ on the extent to which how the local jobs are
to be performed, and how many of them are to be done locally.

A NC can be easily "appliancelized" and its functionality updated
with little user involvement. To me, those advantages outweigh
its potential disadvantages we all have talked about before.

--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 205.173.93.40]
发信人: magicfat (魔法胖子~missing my Friend), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: Ellison predicts shrinking software market
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Fri Apr 27 10:19:32 2001), 站内信件

【 在 qili (qili) 的大作中提到: 】
: By debugging, I meant to find a way to get a feature to work. For example,
: I still don't know how the table function works in Excel.

Well in that case how would you expect either ASP or NC could help you?
8-)  I mean, given the same functionality, the complexity of the software
is the same, the complexity of the UI will very likely be the same, too,
no matter you run the software locally or on some ASP server.  Isn't that
correct?

: I agree. However, the flip side of that argument is equally strong,
: if not stronger. Take the client/server structure against the old centralized
: computing platform: the "ASP-ness" of a c/s structure is the outsourcing
: of files / storage management functions  to a remote site, for example.

I agree, but that doesn't help your argument, my friend, because as I said
c/s architecture is so far mostly used in industry, not home or personal
computing.  There are *huge* differences between those two scenarios.
At least one I can think of right now is,
c/s architecture usually requires huge investment on network facilities
and server facilities, which end users can not afford(or feel no motivation),
and when translated
to the service provider side, it would be a lower-than-break-even user base.
That's why WebTV and other similar devices never really take off, because
people don't feel the need, and don't want to pay the extra.

: slightly different. I don't think a home computing environment
: REQUIRES a central coordinator, even tho. it may function with one.
: your statement is a lot stronger than that.

Right, I think I've been argument a generic PC is always necessary to
be the coordinator/gateway/server/etc.  The names of the roles themselves
suggest the diversity of the tasks.

: Well, you had argued that people added features to a TV to handle
: those information sources, and I pointed out that that was done
: in a distributed / networked way: all the devices transmit information
: in a stanard format (one-way network?). I believe that our
: future environment will migrate to, rather than adding features
: to a central device.

I wouldn't think it is a "distributed/networked" way.  Does your
VCR talk to your PS/2?  Does your satellite box talk to your cablebox?
Yes they might be linked together so that signals can be passed all
the way to the TV, but at large they don't *interact* with each other,
instead, they all go to the TV.  If you remove any of them, the rest
of the system will still provide the rest of the functionalities, but
if you remove the TV, you won't be abel to do anything with the rest of
the system.  And those are the rudimental differences
between a centralized architecture and a distributed one.

--
他号令便号令好了,又何必安静?

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 38.204.0.2]
发信人: qili (qili), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: Ellison predicts shrinking software market
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Fri Apr 27 10:58:55 2001), 站内信件

【 在 magicfat (魔法胖子~missing my Friend) 的大作中提到: 】
: Well in that case how would you expect either ASP or NC could help you?

There are many facets to that story. Our standard installation of Office
used to include solver for Excel. When we upgraded to a new Office suite,
it didn't have solver installed automatically. It took awhile for us
to figure it out, have the IT people make a CD for all of us, and reinstalled
the whole thing on about twenty machines.

With an ASP or NC, a phone call or a click of mouse may have done it,
or it could have been avoided if the other end is careful (true in my
current environment as well).

: I agree, but that doesn't help your argument, my friend, because as I said
: c/s architecture is so far mostly used in industry, not home or personal
: computing.  There are *huge* differences between those two scenarios.
: At least one I can think of right now is,

I think we have to look to the future, not current technology toforsee what
may come down the line. For example, wiring everyhome with phonelines
would have been prohibitively expensive 60 years ago, when having a public
phonebooth in the city hall was the right decision.

when PC first came out, it was considered a niche product for the
geeks and well-offs.

Sure, wideband will be expensive to deploy (as were phonelines). However,
all the new possibilities that come with it will justify its widespread
deployment. and we need to look beyond what is economical to see that.

: I wouldn't think it is a "distributed/networked" way.  Does your

Yes and no. It is in a distributed way because "processing" is done
at each device. It is networked because they are tied together. For
example, my VCR can control my cable box / sat box (I don't have either, but
the functionality is there). My receiver has the ability to control all of
them (including other infra-red device, like a/c or x10 lights). Best
of all, my two-way remote control can do it all by itself.

No in the sense that they are all based on old technology where (one-way)
transmission, not two-way exchange, of information was the goal, pretty much
like some cable-based system where you have to use a phoneline to upload
information (which infra-red or cable mouse does the trick in my system).

To me, being one-way or two-way isn't really important. Working together
to get the job done is the essence of a network. In that sense,
a home a/v system qualifies.

--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 205.173.93.39]
发信人: magicfat (魔法胖子~missing my Friend), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: Ellison predicts shrinking software market
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Fri Apr 27 17:07:16 2001), 站内信件

【 在 qili (qili) 的大作中提到: 】
: There are many facets to that story. Our standard installation of Office
: used to include solver for Excel. When we upgraded to a new Office suite,
: it didn't have solver installed automatically. It took awhile for us
: to figure it out, have the IT people make a CD for all of us, and reinstalled
: the whole thing on about twenty machines.
: With an ASP or NC, a phone call or a click of mouse may have done it,
: or it could have been avoided if the other end is careful (true in my
: current environment as well).

I see... But I doubt even with ASP you can solve it with a phone call.
There will be a lot of issues, maybe not in this particular solver case,
but definitely in other cases concerning bigger modules of the software.
The ASP will have to figure out different optional modules of a software
system and different pricing structures.  Facilities need to be developed
to control access to certain modules on a per-user basis.

From the user's point of view, that also complicates things unnecessarily.
Let's say in the middle of preparing an important report,
you are trying to access an optional module of a software and find it's
not available.  In the ASP scenario, you probably have to go to
the ASP homepage to look for why it's not available, finaly figure out you
need to pay extra money for it, get pissed off because they didn't tell
you when you started the subscription, calm down and come back and look
at the description of the module and the price, ponder if it's worth it,
finally decide to buy it, go through the process to pay by credit card,
wait for the module to be activated for you, and go back to work.  Well
not all of the above will happen all at once, but you got the idea.  And
actually if this happens in the office, it'll be even more complicated,
because 2/3 of the comand chain and 3/4 of the company policy on purchase
will get involved.  8-)

: I think we have to look to the future, not current technology toforsee what
: may come down the line. For example, wiring everyhome with phonelines
: would have been prohibitively expensive 60 years ago, when having a public
: phonebooth in the city hall was the right decision.
: when PC first came out, it was considered a niche product for the
: geeks and well-offs.
: Sure, wideband will be expensive to deploy (as were phonelines). However,
: all the new possibilities that come with it will justify its widespread
: deployment. and we need to look beyond what is economical to see that.

Problem is, the population density in most of the rural areas in US
will probably never make it profitable for the broadband companies
to start even thinking about laying out cables for the folks live there.
Yet the absolute figure accounts for a huge portion of the entire US population,
if not a dominating portion.

: Yes and no. It is in a distributed way because "processing" is done
: at each device. It is networked because they are tied together. For

You can't define them like that! By your definitions, almost everything
is "distributed" and "networked".  Even the earliest dumb terminal+IBM360
would qualify.

: example, my VCR can control my cable box / sat box (I don't have either, but
: the functionality is there). My receiver has the ability to control all of
: them (including other infra-red device, like a/c or x10 lights). Best
: of all, my two-way remote control can do it all by itself.

Those are just different interfaces, just like you can access
an operating system through either local GUI, or
remote login, (or remote GUI whatever).  You can control a box
from a couple of other boxes, but that
does not necessarily make the whole thing "distributed and
networked", by my definition.

: No in the sense that they are all based on old technology where (one-way)
: transmission, not two-way exchange, of information was the goal, pretty much
: like some cable-based system where you have to use a phoneline to upload
: information (which infra-red or cable mouse does the trick in my system).
: To me, being one-way or two-way isn't really important. Working together
: to get the job done is the essence of a network. In that sense,
: a home a/v system qualifies.


--
他号令便号令好了,又何必安静?

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