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巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件

发信人: Blumlein (幸福是一种传说), 信区: ITnews
标  题: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Tue Oct 24 19:42:14 2000), 站内信件

2000.10.20
  今年秋季的Gartner座谈会兼IT展览会场上﹐微软首席执行
官史缔夫·巴尔默(SteveBallmer)表示该公司将“心胸开阔”
地接受将它的软件移植到Linux的可能性﹐只要知识产权的问题能
够获得解决。
  Ballmer还说﹐微软有兴趣将网络传递应用软件服务的.Net  
策略性技术﹐重新设计到其它的操作系统平台上。他尤其特别指出
Palm和Linux两个操作系统。
  不过他却认为Linux的知识产权环境太“杂乱”﹐而且“令人
混淆”。
  事实上不论移植软件到Linux﹐或.Net技术采用其它的操作系
统﹐在Ballmer这篇言论之前微软都一直否认。
  话题转到反托拉斯案上﹐Ballmer表示人们不应该假设微软已
经要被拆成两家公司。Ballmer说微软目前只花费很少的心力在准
备可能被拆公司的事宜。
  Gartner副总裁TomAustin问道﹐使用者在过去五年来
花费在微软公司的软件上是原来的300%﹐到2005年更可能成长到
500%以上﹐Ballmer说这反映了使用者买了更多的微软软件来
作更多工作。
  在未来的竞争对手上﹐Ballmer认为最强劲的对手是
Oracle、SunMicrosystems、AOL﹐和Linux风潮。
(LinuxFab)



--
<七种武器>,七种不平凡的武器,它们是小马的拳头,长生剑,
孔雀翎,多情环,碧玉刀,霸王枪和离别钩,它们并不是真的常
胜不败,而是代表了友情,微笑,信心,仇恨,诚实,勇气和爱
情。如果我们拥有其中之一,也许我们就能永远不败。

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 128.125.5.133]
发信人: vinyl (一生不负溪山债,百药难医书史淫), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Oct 25 13:29:34 2000) WWW-POST

who needs MS in linux?
【 在 Blumlein (幸福是一种传说) 的大作中提到: 】
: 2000.10.20
:   今年秋季的Gartner座谈会兼IT展览会场上﹐微软首席执行
: 官史缔夫·巴尔默(SteveBallmer)表示该公司将“心胸开阔”
: 地接受将它的软件移植到Linux的可能性﹐只要知识产权的问题能
: 够获得解决。
:   Ballmer还说﹐微软有兴趣将网络传递应用软件服务的.Net  
: 策略性技术﹐重新设计到其它的操作系统平台上。他尤其特别指出
: Palm和Linux两个操作系统。
:   不过他却认为Linux的知识产权环境太“杂乱”﹐而且“令人
: 混淆”。
:   事实上不论移植软件到Linux﹐或.Net技术采用其它的操作系
: 统﹐在Ballmer这篇言论之前微软都一直否认。
:   话题转到反托拉斯案上﹐Ballmer表示人们不应该假设微软已
: 经要被拆成两家公司。Ballmer说微软目前只花费很少的心力在准
: 备可能被拆公司的事宜。
:   Gartner副总裁TomAustin问道﹐使用者在过去五年来
: 花费在微软公司的软件上是原来的300%﹐到2005年更可能成长到
: 500%以上﹐Ballmer说这反映了使用者买了更多的微软软件来
: 作更多工作。
:   在未来的竞争对手上﹐Ballmer认为最强劲的对手是
: Oracle、SunMicrosystems、AOL﹐和Linux风潮。
: (LinuxFab)
:
:
:

--
过尽江南繁华乡
春花秋月只寻常

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: ]
发信人: ayanami (尖骨头~甲亢中), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Oct 25 13:46:32 2000), 转信

the users?

【 在 vinyl (一生不负溪山债,百药难医书史淫) 的大作中提到: 】
: who needs MS in linux?
: 【 在 Blumlein (幸福是一种传说) 的大作中提到: 】
: : 2000.10.20
: :   今年秋季的Gartner座谈会兼IT展览会场上﹐微软首席执行
: : 官史缔夫·巴尔默(SteveBallmer)表示该公司将“心胸开阔”
: : 地接受将它的软件移植到Linux的可能性﹐只要知识产权的问题能
: : 够获得解决。
: :   Ballmer还说﹐微软有兴趣将网络传递应用软件服务的.Net  
: : 策略性技术﹐重新设计到其它的操作系统平台上。他尤其特别指出
: : Palm和Linux两个操作系统。
: :   不过他却认为Linux的知识产权环境太“杂乱”﹐而且“令人
: : 混淆”。
: :   事实上不论移植软件到Linux﹐或.Net技术采用其它的操作系
: : 统﹐在Ballmer这篇言论之前微软都一直否认。
: :   话题转到反托拉斯案上﹐Ballmer表示人们不应该假设微软已
: : 经要被拆成两家公司。Ballmer说微软目前只花费很少的心力在准
: : 备可能被拆公司的事宜。
: :   Gartner副总裁TomAustin问道﹐使用者在过去五年来
: : 花费在微软公司的软件上是原来的300%﹐到2005年更可能成长到
: : 500%以上﹐Ballmer说这反映了使用者买了更多的微软软件来
: : 作更多工作。
: :   在未来的竞争对手上﹐Ballmer认为最强劲的对手是
: : Oracle、SunMicrosystems、AOL﹐和Linux风潮。
: : (LinuxFab)


--
Linux is only free when your time has no value
                                - JWZ

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 64.252.95.167]
发信人: microbe (奇妙的微生物), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Oct 25 13:51:18 2000), 站内信件


I need.  If Microsoft could make Linux better (not the kernel, but
the UI), I would be very happy.  First thing, MS Office; Second
thing, Internet Explorer.  Third thing, Visual Studio.

Am I dreaming?

【 在 vinyl (一生不负溪山债,百药难医书史淫) 的大作中提到: 】
: who needs MS in linux?
: 【 在 Blumlein (幸福是一种传说) 的大作中提到: 】
: : 2000.10.20
: :   今年秋季的Gartner座谈会兼IT展览会场上﹐微软首席执行
: : 官史缔夫·巴尔默(SteveBallmer)表示该公司将“心胸开阔”
: : 地接受将它的软件移植到Linux的可能性﹐只要知识产权的问题能
: : 够获得解决。
: :   Ballmer还说﹐微软有兴趣将网络传递应用软件服务的.Net  
: : 策略性技术﹐重新设计到其它的操作系统平台上。他尤其特别指出
: : Palm和Linux两个操作系统。
: :   不过他却认为Linux的知识产权环境太“杂乱”﹐而且“令人
: : 混淆”。
: :   事实上不论移植软件到Linux﹐或.Net技术采用其它的操作系
: : 统﹐在Ballmer这篇言论之前微软都一直否认。
: :   话题转到反托拉斯案上﹐Ballmer表示人们不应该假设微软已
: : 经要被拆成两家公司。Ballmer说微软目前只花费很少的心力在准
: : 备可能被拆公司的事宜。
: :   Gartner副总裁TomAustin问道﹐使用者在过去五年来
: : 花费在微软公司的软件上是原来的300%﹐到2005年更可能成长到
: : 500%以上﹐Ballmer说这反映了使用者买了更多的微软软件来
: : 作更多工作。
: :   在未来的竞争对手上﹐Ballmer认为最强劲的对手是
: : Oracle、SunMicrosystems、AOL﹐和Linux风潮。
: : (LinuxFab)


--
我在门外坐了两天两夜,看着天空在不断的变化。
我才发现,虽然我到这里很久,却从来没有看清楚这片沙漠。

※ 修改:.microbe 于 Oct 25 13:51:40 修改本文.[FROM: 160.39.200.28]
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 160.39.200.28]
发信人: ayanami (尖骨头~甲亢中), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Oct 25 14:00:10 2000), 转信

hmm THe thing we need in GUI is not any of Microsoft's applications. We need
some sort of COM architecture that is not as hard as CORBA to use.
MSoffice can be replaced by KOffice, IE can be replaced by mozilla,
visual studio can be replaced by kdeveloper or , just, emacs! :)

【 在 microbe (奇妙的微生物) 的大作中提到: 】
: I need.  If Microsoft could make Linux better (not the kernel, but
: the UI), I would be very happy.  First thing, MS Office; Second
: thing, Internet Explorer.  Third thing, Visual Studio.
: Am I dreaming?
: 【 在 vinyl (一生不负溪山债,百药难医书史淫) 的大作中提到: 】
: : who needs MS in linux?


--
Linux is only free when your time has no value
                                - JWZ

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 64.252.95.167]
发信人: loggie (二黑 风物常换 明心可留), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Oct 25 15:12:06 2000), 站内信件

I guess there will be something called MS L++ :D

and MS Office for L++, IE for L++ and VS for L++

hoho

【 在 microbe (奇妙的微生物) 的大作中提到: 】
: I need.  If Microsoft could make Linux better (not the kernel, but
: the UI), I would be very happy.  First thing, MS Office; Second
: thing, Internet Explorer.  Third thing, Visual Studio.
: Am I dreaming?
: 【 在 vinyl (一生不负溪山债,百药难医书史淫) 的大作中提到: 】
: : who needs MS in linux?


--
厚积薄发, 秉诚度世

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 128.12.194.52]
发信人: magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Oct 25 17:18:46 2000), 站内信件


DOCM has Unix based implementation.  People just pretend not to see
it.

Anyway, I doubt Ballmer was just making a pose.

【 在 ayanami (尖骨头~甲亢中) 的大作中提到: 】
: hmm THe thing we need in GUI is not any of Microsoft's applications. We need
: some sort of COM architecture that is not as hard as CORBA to use.
: MSoffice can be replaced by KOffice, IE can be replaced by mozilla,
: visual studio can be replaced by kdeveloper or , just, emacs! :)
: 【 在 microbe (奇妙的微生物) 的大作中提到: 】
: : I need.  If Microsoft could make Linux better (not the kernel, but
: : the UI), I would be very happy.  First thing, MS Office; Second
: : thing, Internet Explorer.  Third thing, Visual Studio.
: : Am I dreaming?


--
他号令便号令好了,又何必安静?

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 38.204.0.130]
发信人: gaia (floating), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Oct 25 18:20:45 2000) WWW-POST

They will replace all the GNU software with MS products, and
the kernel will become useless.

【 在 Blumlein (幸福是一种传说) 的大作中提到: 】
: 2000.10.20
:   今年秋季的Gartner座谈会兼IT展览会场上﹐微软首席执行
: 官史缔夫·巴尔默(SteveBallmer)表示该公司将“心胸开阔”
: 地接受将它的软件移植到Linux的可能性﹐只要知识产权的问题能
: 够获得解决。
:   Ballmer还说﹐微软有兴趣将网络传递应用软件服务的.Net  
: 策略性技术﹐重新设计到其它的操作系统平台上。他尤其特别指出
: Palm和Linux两个操作系统。
:   不过他却认为Linux的知识产权环境太“杂乱”﹐而且“令人
: 混淆”。
:   事实上不论移植软件到Linux﹐或.Net技术采用其它的操作系
: 统﹐在Ballmer这篇言论之前微软都一直否认。
:   话题转到反托拉斯案上﹐Ballmer表示人们不应该假设微软已
: 经要被拆成两家公司。Ballmer说微软目前只花费很少的心力在准
: 备可能被拆公司的事宜。
:   Gartner副总裁TomAustin问道﹐使用者在过去五年来
: 花费在微软公司的软件上是原来的300%﹐到2005年更可能成长到
: 500%以上﹐Ballmer说这反映了使用者买了更多的微软软件来
: 作更多工作。
:   在未来的竞争对手上﹐Ballmer认为最强劲的对手是
: Oracle、SunMicrosystems、AOL﹐和Linux风潮。
: (LinuxFab)
:
:
:


--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: dhcp-111-132.tu]
发信人: bz (bz), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Oct 25 21:20:31 2000), 转信


I just hope MS will not ruin the OpenSource. I'd prefer a linux
with less applications, speaking of MS's dirty hands. In fact,
MS does not need to make applications, they just need to release
some detailed MS standards, such as BIFF, ASF...linux guys will
handle it just well. Final words, we do not need MS Visual Studio,
MS mediaplayer, MS other shits for linux, we just need to know
how to make compatible applications by a third party.

【 在 gaia (floating) 的大作中提到: 】
: They will replace all the GNU software with MS products, and
: the kernel will become useless.
: 【 在 Blumlein (幸福是一种传说) 的大作中提到: 】
: : 2000.10.20
: :   今年秋季的Gartner座谈会兼IT展览会场上﹐微软首席执行
: : 官史缔夫·巴尔默(SteveBallmer)表示该公司将“心胸开阔”
: : 地接受将它的软件移植到Linux的可能性﹐只要知识产权的问题能
: : 够获得解决。
: :   Ballmer还说﹐微软有兴趣将网络传递应用软件服务的.Net  
: : 策略性技术﹐重新设计到其它的操作系统平台上。他尤其特别指出
: : Palm和Linux两个操作系统。
: :   不过他却认为Linux的知识产权环境太“杂乱”﹐而且“令人
: : 混淆”。
: :   事实上不论移植软件到Linux﹐或.Net技术采用其它的操作系
: : 统﹐在Ballmer这篇言论之前微软都一直否认。
: :   话题转到反托拉斯案上﹐Ballmer表示人们不应该假设微软已
: : 经要被拆成两家公司。Ballmer说微软目前只花费很少的心力在准
: : 备可能被拆公司的事宜。
: :   Gartner副总裁TomAustin问道﹐使用者在过去五年来
: : 花费在微软公司的软件上是原来的300%﹐到2005年更可能成长到
: : 500%以上﹐Ballmer说这反映了使用者买了更多的微软软件来
: : 作更多工作。
: :   在未来的竞争对手上﹐Ballmer认为最强劲的对手是
: : Oracle、SunMicrosystems、AOL﹐和Linux风潮。
: : (LinuxFab)


--
我想家,可是我不哭

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 165.247.232.50]
发信人: magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Oct 25 23:46:56 2000), 站内信件


Most MS technologies have well-defined and openly published
interfaces(by "well-defined"
I mean "clearly" and "completely", not necessarily "superior")

As I said, people just pretend not to see them, or see them but
become paranoid about that those interfaces are controlled by
Microsoft.

【 在 bz (bz) 的大作中提到: 】
: I just hope MS will not ruin the OpenSource. I'd prefer a linux
: with less applications, speaking of MS's dirty hands. In fact,
: MS does not need to make applications, they just need to release
: some detailed MS standards, such as BIFF, ASF...linux guys will
: handle it just well. Final words, we do not need MS Visual Studio,
: MS mediaplayer, MS other shits for linux, we just need to know
: how to make compatible applications by a third party.
: 【 在 gaia (floating) 的大作中提到: 】
: : They will replace all the GNU software with MS products, and
: : the kernel will become useless.


--
他号令便号令好了,又何必安静?

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 24.18.166.45]
发信人: quantum (Time 2 Change), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Oct 25 23:56:28 2000), 站内信件

Why should they? We have Qt, GTK+, not only people
have 'interface', people have source code! What
advantage does M$ provide?

Don't try to sell this M$ garbage to Linux people.
They may have a very good office application. But
develpment? No.

【 在 magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地) 的大作中提到: 】
: Most MS technologies have well-defined and openly published
: interfaces(by "well-defined"
: I mean "clearly" and "completely", not necessarily "superior")
: As I said, people just pretend not to see them, or see them but
: become paranoid about that those interfaces are controlled by
: Microsoft.
: 【 在 bz (bz) 的大作中提到: 】
: : I just hope MS will not ruin the OpenSource. I'd prefer a linux
: : with less applications, speaking of MS's dirty hands. In fact,
: : MS does not need to make applications, they just need to release
: : some detailed MS standards, such as BIFF, ASF...linux guys will
: : handle it just well. Final words, we do not need MS Visual Studio,
: : MS mediaplayer, MS other shits for linux, we just need to know
: : how to make compatible applications by a third party.


--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 165.91.120.210]
发信人: cato (大嘴猫), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Oct 26 00:31:07 2000) WWW-POST

We don't want those MS garbage. We can almost do everything
on Linux.
We don't want to pay them those money.

MS sucks.

【 在 microbe (奇妙的微生物) 的大作中提到: 】
:
: I need.  If Microsoft could make Linux better (not the kernel, but
: the UI), I would be very happy.  First thing, MS Office; Second
: thing, Internet Explorer.  Third thing, Visual Studio.
:
: Am I dreaming?
:
: 【 在 vinyl (一生不负溪山债,百药难医书史淫) 的大作中提到: 】
: : who needs MS in linux?
: : 【 在 Blumlein (幸福是一种传说) 的大作中提到: 】
: : : 2000.10.20
: : :   今年秋季的Gartner座谈会兼IT展览会场上﹐微软首席执行
: : : 官史缔夫·巴尔默(SteveBallmer)表示该公司将“心胸开阔”
: : : 地接受将它的软件移植到Linux的可能性﹐只要知识产权的问题能
: : : 够获得解决。
: : :   Ballmer还说﹐微软有兴趣将网络传递应用软件服务的.Net  
: : : 策略性技术﹐重新设计到其它的操作系统平台上。他尤其特别指出
: : : Palm和Linux两个操作系统。
: : :   不过他却认为Linux的知识产权环境太“杂乱”﹐而且“令人
: : : 混淆”。
: : :   事实上不论移植软件到Linux﹐或.Net技术采用其它的操作系
: : : 统﹐在Ballmer这篇言论之前微软都一直否认。
: : :   话题转到反托拉斯案上﹐Ballmer表示人们不应该假设微软已
: : : 经要被拆成两家公司。Ballmer说微软目前只花费很少的心力在准
: : : 备可能被拆公司的事宜。
: : :   Gartner副总裁TomAustin问道﹐使用者在过去五年来
: : : 花费在微软公司的软件上是原来的300%﹐到2005年更可能成长到
: : : 500%以上﹐Ballmer说这反映了使用者买了更多的微软软件来
: : : 作更多工作。
: : :   在未来的竞争对手上﹐Ballmer认为最强劲的对手是
: : : Oracle、SunMicrosystems、AOL﹐和Linux风潮。
: : : (LinuxFab)
:
:


--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 128.252.121.31]
发信人: ayanami (尖骨头~甲亢中), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Oct 26 00:40:36 2000), 转信

ugh, however much  I dislike Microsoft's business practice, it always doesnt
hurt to have a new player in the field. Look at X-box, which is giving PS2 a
stiff competition (or menance of competition) even it hasn't come out.
Microsoft makes some of the finest mouse and keyboards as well as joysticks,
I utterly enjoyed its Street&tips software.
Let's face it, if microsoft is going to step into Linux market, it has to play
by the rule.

【 在 cato (大嘴猫) 的大作中提到: 】
: We don't want those MS garbage. We can almost do everything
: on Linux.
: We don't want to pay them those money.
: MS sucks.
: 【 在 microbe (奇妙的微生物) 的大作中提到: 】
: : I need.  If Microsoft could make Linux better (not the kernel, but
: : the UI), I would be very happy.  First thing, MS Office; Second
: : thing, Internet Explorer.  Third thing, Visual Studio.
: : Am I dreaming?


--
Linux is only free when your time has no value
                                - JWZ

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 63.52.96.177]
发信人: jinfeng (PigHead), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Oct 26 00:44:12 2000), 站内信件

yeah, pure yelling and bashing are of immaturity.

【 在 ayanami (尖骨头~甲亢中) 的大作中提到: 】
: ugh, however much  I dislike Microsoft's business practice, it always doesnt
: hurt to have a new player in the field. Look at X-box, which is giving PS2 a
: stiff competition (or menance of competition) even it hasn't come out.
: Microsoft makes some of the finest mouse and keyboards as well as joysticks,
: I utterly enjoyed its Street&tips software.
: Let's face it, if microsoft is going to step into Linux market, it has to play
: by the rule.
: 【 在 cato (大嘴猫) 的大作中提到: 】
: : We don't want those MS garbage. We can almost do everything
: : on Linux.
: : We don't want to pay them those money.
: : MS sucks.


--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 140.233.201.12]
发信人: microbe (奇妙的微生物), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Oct 26 01:11:38 2000), 站内信件


Don't speak for others, OK?  I need it, and users need it.
Linux has been changing from a hacker's OS into a desktop
OS, and people need more applications.  They don't mind
paying for them.  And if we have more good softwares, Linux
users will become more.

I like Linux, but as a desktop OS it still doesn't suffice.
On the other hand, MS has very good software engineering.
If it _does_ want to play, it will play well.

【 在 cato (大嘴猫) 的大作中提到: 】
: We don't want those MS garbage. We can almost do everything
: on Linux.
: We don't want to pay them those money.
: MS sucks.
: 【 在 microbe (奇妙的微生物) 的大作中提到: 】
: : I need.  If Microsoft could make Linux better (not the kernel, but
: : the UI), I would be very happy.  First thing, MS Office; Second
: : thing, Internet Explorer.  Third thing, Visual Studio.
: : Am I dreaming?


--
我在门外坐了两天两夜,看着天空在不断的变化。
我才发现,虽然我到这里很久,却从来没有看清楚这片沙漠。

※ 修改:.microbe 于 Oct 26 01:13:00 修改本文.[FROM: 160.39.200.28]
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 160.39.200.28]
发信人: bz (bz), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Oct 26 02:05:53 2000), 转信

【 在 microbe (奇妙的微生物) 的大作中提到: 】
: Don't speak for others, OK?  I need it, and users need it.

No one speaks for others, OK?  you need software, I need applications,
so do other users. But the linux world does not need MS-made software,
we need specification. Even MS might provide some binaries for Linux,
what do we have? We still need to rely on MS, if it does not provide
specifications. Have not we sufferred enough from MS dark-boxes? Are you
playing asf on linux? Do you know how many linux video players are forced to
quit by MS?

: Linux has been changing from a hacker's OS into a desktop
: OS, and people need more applications.  They don't mind
: paying for them.  And if we have more good softwares, Linux
: users will become more.

This is right, we hope linux can do good job on pc, but MS will make
good applications for free or low cost? Microbe, how many commercial
software are you using for your linux? how many of them were paid?
even under windows, how many are paid by you? cheap games are not counted.
"They don't mind paying for them"? Who are they? Do not speak for others, OK?

: I like Linux, but as a desktop OS it still doesn't suffice.

I just do not know why ppl ask so much from linux? if linux can keep the
advantages that ppl like now, and then it has more and more beautiful
apps, where will MS be? So if your linux can handle your needs well, then
use linux, if you find only MS can do well for your case, then go for MS
windows, if you want them both, then you have gotta figure out your own way.

: On the other hand, MS has very good software engineering.
: If it _does_ want to play, it will play well.

This is wrong, It should be "If it _does_ want to CONTROL, it will ..."
In the original post, it said MS would be "OPEN MINDED" to accept porting
to linux, let's see how open-minded it will be, ok? Personally, I do not
believe MS has the true-heart at all, unless it opens its specs.
I do not know how many ppl here know that MS developed some linux software
before, and how many ppl here played with those pieces before, how many here
know why MS stopped any linux development and even removed "linux" from all
its web database? now MS comes back linux world with a bright heart? Give me
a break first. I do not why MS made such a suden vow here either, let's wait
and see.

: 【 在 cato (大嘴猫) 的大作中提到: 】
: : We don't want those MS garbage. We can almost do everything
: : on Linux.
: : We don't want to pay them those money.
: : MS sucks.


--
我想家,可是我不哭

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 165.247.232.50]
发信人: microbe (奇妙的微生物), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Oct 26 02:14:12 2000), 站内信件

【 在 bz (bz) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 microbe (奇妙的微生物) 的大作中提到: 】
: : Don't speak for others, OK?  I need it, and users need it.
: No one speaks for others, OK?  you need software, I need applications,
: so do other users. But the linux world does not need MS-made software,

So do _not_ speak for the "linux world".  Period.

: we need specification. Even MS might provide some binaries for Linux,
: what do we have? We still need to rely on MS, if it does not provide
: specifications. Have not we sufferred enough from MS dark-boxes? Are you
: playing asf on linux? Do you know how many linux video players are forced to
: quit by MS?

We have been relying on MS.  People are using Windows because they rely on MS.
The fact MS would develop Linux software would only bring some of them back to
Linux, not vice versa.

: : Linux has been changing from a hacker's OS into a desktop
: : OS, and people need more applications.  They don't mind
: : paying for them.  And if we have more good softwares, Linux
: : users will become more.
: This is right, we hope linux can do good job on pc, but MS will make
: good applications for free or low cost? Microbe, how many commercial
: software are you using for your linux? how many of them were paid?
: even under windows, how many are paid by you? cheap games are not counted.

I am a poor student.  Don't ask me this question.  But universities, companies,
governments are not poor.  They throw money to good softwares.  Being free
is not a good enough excuse for not being able to provide good enough
software, nor rejecting it.

: "They don't mind paying for them"? Who are they? Do not speak for others, OK?

I know it as a fact.  USA is not China.

: : I like Linux, but as a desktop OS it still doesn't suffice.
: I just do not know why ppl ask so much from linux? if linux can keep the
: advantages that ppl like now, and then it has more and more beautiful
: apps, where will MS be? So if your linux can handle your needs well, then
: use linux, if you find only MS can do well for your case, then go for MS
: windows, if you want them both, then you have gotta figure out your own way.

If you don't know why people are asking more and more, go back to play with
Linux 0.99, and never upgrade your computer.

: : On the other hand, MS has very good software engineering.
: : If it _does_ want to play, it will play well.
: This is wrong, It should be "If it _does_ want to CONTROL, it will ..."
: In the original post, it said MS would be "OPEN MINDED" to accept porting
: to linux, let's see how open-minded it will be, ok? Personally, I do not
: believe MS has the true-heart at all, unless it opens its specs.
: I do not know how many ppl here know that MS developed some linux software
: before, and how many ppl here played with those pieces before, how many here
: know why MS stopped any linux development and even removed "linux" from all
: its web database? now MS comes back linux world with a bright heart? Give me
: a break first. I do not why MS made such a suden vow here either, let's wait
: and see.

If it could control Linux, it should have started doing so, and you simply
could not stop it.  Are you begging mercy from it?

--
我在门外坐了两天两夜,看着天空在不断的变化。
我才发现,虽然我到这里很久,却从来没有看清楚这片沙漠。

※ 修改:.microbe 于 Oct 26 02:27:47 修改本文.[FROM: 160.39.200.28]
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 160.39.200.28]
发信人: xiaoyequ (小夜曲), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Oct 26 05:38:21 2000), 站内信件

MIVROSOFT,HEHHE!
【 在 bz (bz) 的大作中提到: 】
: I just hope MS will not ruin the OpenSource. I'd prefer a linux
: with less applications, speaking of MS's dirty hands. In fact,
: MS does not need to make applications, they just need to release
: some detailed MS standards, such as BIFF, ASF...linux guys will
: handle it just well. Final words, we do not need MS Visual Studio,
: MS mediaplayer, MS other shits for linux, we just need to know
: how to make compatible applications by a third party.
: 【 在 gaia (floating) 的大作中提到: 】
: : They will replace all the GNU software with MS products, and
: : the kernel will become useless.


--
☆           _____ 
    伞   ノ____ノ     ●  伞    昨夜寒蛩不住鸣
  伞伞  |    ||          伞伞  惊回千里梦
伞伞伞 ˉˉˉ  ˉ-     伞伞伞
   ‖                   ˉ-へ  ‖

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 155.69.124.236]
发信人: qili (qili), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Oct 26 10:49:50 2000), 站内信件

【 在 quantum (Time 2 Change) 的大作中提到: 】
: Why should they? We have Qt, GTK+, not only people
: have 'interface', people have source code! What
: advantage does M$ provide?

when was last time you changed the source code of Qt or
GTK+? I venture to say that less 1% of us understand
the intricacy of the open source packages to modify
them to a particular application without screwing them up.

Would you buy a phone on the basis that its manufacturer
provides your the schematics? or receipes for the transsistors
or die cuts for the ICs used in that phone?

I wouldn't.


--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 206.189.24.8]
发信人: ayanami (尖骨头~甲亢中), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Oct 26 11:53:30 2000), 转信

hehe, I, for one, will never program for Gnome, unless they change their
silly function name schemes. :) gnome_blahblah_function_name_sucks(int t)
ugh.. that is a pain in the butt to read. but it is a wonderful software. :)

【 在 qili (qili) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 quantum (Time 2 Change) 的大作中提到: 】
: : Why should they? We have Qt, GTK+, not only people
: : have 'interface', people have source code! What
: : advantage does M$ provide?
: when was last time you changed the source code of Qt or
: GTK+? I venture to say that less 1% of us understand
: the intricacy of the open source packages to modify
: them to a particular application without screwing them up.
The point of OOS is you are able to fork a different project whenever you feel
like it. You are in control, not the company or other people.

: Would you buy a phone on the basis that its manufacturer
: provides your the schematics? or receipes for the transsistors
: or die cuts for the ICs used in that phone?
: I wouldn't.


--
Linux is only free when your time has no value
                                - JWZ

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 64.252.95.167]
发信人: trajan (笨), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Oct 26 13:08:31 2000), 站内信件

【 在 qili (qili) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 quantum (Time 2 Change) 的大作中提到: 】
: : Why should they? We have Qt, GTK+, not only people
: : have 'interface', people have source code! What
: : advantage does M$ provide?
: when was last time you changed the source code of Qt or
: GTK+? I venture to say that less 1% of us understand
: the intricacy of the open source packages to modify

0.1% is enough.

--
  天地不仁               诸行无常

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 156.153.255.170]
发信人: qili (qili), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Oct 26 13:38:06 2000), 站内信件

【 在 ayanami (尖骨头~甲亢中) 的大作中提到: 】
: The point of OOS is you are able to fork a different project whenever you feel
: like it. You are in control, not the company or other people.

the question is: how much value does that CONTROL give ordinary
users?

Little, I guess.

If Linux remains a hacker's OS, I admit that the ability to be in complete
control (to the point of writting your own) is valuable. Unfortunately, if
you follow Linus, that doesn't seem to be where he wants Linux to go.

--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 206.189.24.9]
发信人: magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Oct 26 14:38:01 2000), 站内信件

【 在 ayanami (尖骨头~甲亢中) 的大作中提到: 】
: ugh, however much  I dislike Microsoft's business practice, it always doesnt
: hurt to have a new player in the field. Look at X-box, which is giving PS2 a
: stiff competition (or menance of competition) even it hasn't come out.
: Microsoft makes some of the finest mouse and keyboards as well as joysticks,
: I utterly enjoyed its Street&tips software.

I am not that lucky w/ Streets&Trips.  For a couple of times its
vague directions wasted me several extra hours to find the places.

--
他号令便号令好了,又何必安静?

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 38.204.0.130]
发信人: quantum (Time 2 Change), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Oct 26 14:46:48 2000), 站内信件

Qt & GTK+ are for developers, not normal users directly.

If the developers can benift the access to source code,
thus results better software, then the end user will
benifit eventually. Which is exactly what happens
these days.

You certaintly don't do any real programming.

As for Linus controls Linux, you misunderstood the whole
concept. When we talk about Linux, it is kernerl+GUI+
applications. Linus only controls the kernerl, and that is
it. There are many other projects going on out there,
such as KDE, GNOME, Apache, Staroffice, etc. And most
software such as gcc is controled by Free Software
Fundation which exists early than Linux. Linus once
said in the future the interest in the kernerl will
wane, and perple will be more interested in adding
more fancy feature to the GUI.


【 在 qili (qili) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 ayanami (尖骨头~甲亢中) 的大作中提到: 】
: : The point of OOS is you are able to fork a different project whenever you feel
: : like it. You are in control, not the company or other people.
: the question is: how much value does that CONTROL give ordinary
: users?
: Little, I guess.
: If Linux remains a hacker's OS, I admit that the ability to be in complete
: control (to the point of writting your own) is valuable. Unfortunately, if
: you follow Linus, that doesn't seem to be where he wants Linux to go.


--
※ 修改:.quantum 于 Oct 26 15:08:31 修改本文.[FROM: 165.91.120.210]
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 165.91.120.210]
发信人: magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Oct 26 14:46:49 2000), 站内信件

【 在 ayanami (尖骨头~甲亢中) 的大作中提到: 】
: The point of OOS is you are able to fork a different project whenever you feel
: like it. You are in control, not the company or other people.

The point of casting doubt on Open Source is how much price you have to pay
for being "in control".  I'm not talking about price in terms of
money.

--
他号令便号令好了,又何必安静?

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 38.204.0.130]
发信人: magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Oct 26 14:53:58 2000), 站内信件

【 在 quantum (Time 2 Change) 的大作中提到: 】
: Qt & GTK+ are for developers, not normal users directly.
: If the developers can benift the access to source code,
: thus results better software, then the end user will
: benifit eventually. Which is exactly what happens
: these days.
: You certaintly haven't do any real programming, don't you?

Being able to manipulate source code directly does not
necessarily lead to product with better quality.  If you have
done any real programming, you will certainly know
in many cases it leads to mess.

--
他号令便号令好了,又何必安静?

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 38.204.0.130]
发信人: quantum (Time 2 Change), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Oct 26 14:59:14 2000), 站内信件

So you mean not able to access source code lead to
better product?

Of course to benifit the access to source code, you need
certain skills and experience. Quot:'Good programmers know
how to code, greater ones know how to reuse.'

【 在 magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 quantum (Time 2 Change) 的大作中提到: 】
: : Qt & GTK+ are for developers, not normal users directly.
: : If the developers can benift the access to source code,
: : thus results better software, then the end user will
: : benifit eventually. Which is exactly what happens
: : these days.
: : You certaintly haven't do any real programming, don't you?
: Being able to manipulate source code directly does not
: necessarily lead to product with better quality.  If you have
: done any real programming, you will certainly know
: in many cases it leads to mess.


--
※ 修改:.quantum 于 Oct 26 15:10:36 修改本文.[FROM: 165.91.120.210]
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 165.91.120.210]
发信人: qili (qili), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Oct 26 15:21:26 2000) WWW-POST

【 在 quantum (Time 2 Change) 的大作中提到: 】
: Qt & GTK+ are for developers, not normal users directly.
:
: If the developers can benift the access to source code,
: thus results better software, then the end user will
: benifit eventually. Which is exactly what happens
: these days.
:

There are two problems:
a) will the developers benefit, substantively, from having
access to source code?

It is not clear that the answer is yes. or at least I
haven't
seen concrete results supportive of it.

b) Is having access to the source code the only way, as is
presummed
here, to improve software quality?

Another way to answer this question, in light of the first
question, is
"can you improve software quality by insulating developers
from
certain details?"

My answer is yes. and let me give an example that I know of.
There are two ways
to access hardware (see a floopy drive) under DOS. Using
INT13h, or directly
program the NEC floppy controller via I/O ports. INT13h
insulates the programmers from the details of the floppy
controller and provides a cleaner and more stable solution.
Programming the port, which requires more understanding of
the floppy controller, is less stable and less portable.

There is no shortage of bad programmers screwing up the
flopper controller (all TSR programs under DOS have to
program the port directly as INT13h is not re-entrant (I
think that's the term)). some versions of SideKick, from
Borand International, had enourmous problems on some PS/2
for that reason.

So here is any example where it is better to shield
programmers away from certain details. What's driving this,
you may ask? Well, not every programmer is as capable as we
hope they are. There are bad programmers out there and it is
those guys you want to "protect".


: You certaintly haven't do any real programming, don't you?
:

Not since early 1990s. Before that, I was pretty good.

: As for Linus controls Linux, you misunderstood the whole
: concept. When we talk about Linux, it is kernerl+GUI+
: applications. Linus only controls the kernerl, and that is
: it. There are many other projects going on out there,
: such as KDE, GNOME, Apache, Staroffice, etc. And most
: software such as gcc is controled by Free Software
: Fundation which exists early than Linux. Linus once
: said in the future the interest in the kernerl will
: wane, and perple will be more interested in adding
: more fancy feature to the GUI.
:

My comment was more directly at where or how Linux
(including the OS,
gui + applications) should position itself in the market. As
the person
driving the OS, Linux certainly has a lot more influence on
this than
any other single person / instituition.


--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: dixon.ge.com]
发信人: qili (qili), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Oct 26 15:25:41 2000), 站内信件

precisely. Not too long ago, I read a Gartner report that
put TOC (total ownership cost) of an average application at
5x of its upfront cost (and that figure would be even higher
for larger enterprise-wide applications). That is why large
corporations aren't exactly jumping onto this Linux bandwagon.

【 在 magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 ayanami (尖骨头~甲亢中) 的大作中提到: 】
: : The point of OOS is you are able to fork a different project whenever you feel
: : like it. You are in control, not the company or other people.
: The point of casting doubt on Open Source is how much price you have to pay
: for being "in control".  I'm not talking about price in terms of
: money.


--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 206.189.24.8]
发信人: ayanami (尖骨头~甲亢中), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Oct 26 15:31:22 2000), 转信

OSS is a GOOD[tm] thing, for both developers and users.
But it doesn't seem to be making lots of hot cash.. ugh. :)

【 在 magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 ayanami (尖骨头~甲亢中) 的大作中提到: 】
: : The point of OOS is you are able to fork a different project whenever you feel
: : like it. You are in control, not the company or other people.
: The point of casting doubt on Open Source is how much price you have to pay
: for being "in control".  I'm not talking about price in terms of
: money.


--
Linux is only free when your time has no value
                                - JWZ

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 64.252.95.167]
发信人: magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Oct 26 16:10:47 2000), 站内信件

【 在 quantum (Time 2 Change) 的大作中提到: 】
: So you mean not able to access source code lead to
: better product?

In some sense, yes.
Being able to manipulate the source code directly usually
discourages code reuse in some more systematic way,
and makes the client code rely heavily on
the internal implementation details of the component being
reused.

--
他号令便号令好了,又何必安静?

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 38.204.0.130]
发信人: loggie (二黑 风物常换 明心可留), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Oct 26 16:39:12 2000), 站内信件

The  problem is, if Linus refuses to make more change to the kernel, the
enrichment/growth of Linux user interface could be tougher.

MS Office developement works closely with MS Windows devlopment to make
user interface easier to develop, though harder for outside independent
developers. Probably that's one reason MS got troubles. But believe it or
not, some small OS/kernel changes will make application developers' life
much easier.

Somehow, we can still say Linus can shape the future of applications on
Linux.

【 在 quantum (Time 2 Change) 的大作中提到: 】
: Qt & GTK+ are for developers, not normal users directly.
: If the developers can benift the access to source code,
: thus results better software, then the end user will
: benifit eventually. Which is exactly what happens
: these days.
: You certaintly don't do any real programming.
: As for Linus controls Linux, you misunderstood the whole
: concept. When we talk about Linux, it is kernerl+GUI+
: applications. Linus only controls the kernerl, and that is
: it. There are many other projects going on out there,
: such as KDE, GNOME, Apache, Staroffice, etc. And most
: software such as gcc is controled by Free Software
: Fundation which exists early than Linux. Linus once
: said in the future the interest in the kernerl will
: wane, and perple will be more interested in adding
: more fancy feature to the GUI.
: 【 在 qili (qili) 的大作中提到: 】
: : the question is: how much value does that CONTROL give ordinary
: : users?
: : Little, I guess.
: : If Linux remains a hacker's OS, I admit that the ability to be in complete
: : control (to the point of writting your own) is valuable. Unfortunately, if
: : you follow Linus, that doesn't seem to be where he wants Linux to go.


--
厚积薄发, 秉诚度世

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 171.71.138.217]
发信人: loggie (二黑 风物常换 明心可留), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Oct 26 16:43:17 2000), 站内信件

【 在 quantum (Time 2 Change) 的大作中提到: 】
: So you mean not able to access source code lead to
: better product?
: Of course to benifit the access to source code, you need
: certain skills and experience. Quot:'Good programmers know
: how to code, greater ones know how to reuse.'

The problem is, the programmers at this world are not all great
programmers, some are good, some are just plain but they can do
their jobs for their breads.

so the "great ... knows how to ..." rule can simply be regarded as
a hacker rule.

: 【 在 magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地) 的大作中提到: 】
: : Being able to manipulate source code directly does not
: : necessarily lead to product with better quality.  If you have
: : done any real programming, you will certainly know
: : in many cases it leads to mess.


--
厚积薄发, 秉诚度世

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 171.71.138.217]
发信人: ayanami (尖骨头~甲亢中), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Oct 26 17:22:53 2000), 转信

I dont see why. Explain?

【 在 magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 quantum (Time 2 Change) 的大作中提到: 】
: : So you mean not able to access source code lead to
: : better product?
: In some sense, yes.
: Being able to manipulate the source code directly usually
: discourages code reuse in some more systematic way,
: and makes the client code rely heavily on
: the internal implementation details of the component being
: reused.


--
Linux is only free when your time has no value
                                - JWZ

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 64.252.95.167]
发信人: ayanami (尖骨头~甲亢中), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Oct 26 17:25:36 2000), 转信

hmm FYI, linus is the main but not the only coder for the linux kernel.
And if ever, for some god forbidden reason, linus couldn;t continue his
contribution to Linux, linux can always adopt FreeBSD's way of development

【 在 loggie (二黑 风物常换 明心可留) 的大作中提到: 】
: The  problem is, if Linus refuses to make more change to the kernel, the
: enrichment/growth of Linux user interface could be tougher.
: MS Office developement works closely with MS Windows devlopment to make
: user interface easier to develop, though harder for outside independent
: developers. Probably that's one reason MS got troubles. But believe it or
: not, some small OS/kernel changes will make application developers' life
: much easier.
: Somehow, we can still say Linus can shape the future of applications on
: Linux.
: 【 在 quantum (Time 2 Change) 的大作中提到: 】
: : Qt & GTK+ are for developers, not normal users directly.
: : If the developers can benift the access to source code,
: : thus results better software, then the end user will
: : benifit eventually. Which is exactly what happens
: : these days.
: : You certaintly don't do any real programming.
: : As for Linus controls Linux, you misunderstood the whole
: : concept. When we talk about Linux, it is kernerl+GUI+
: : applications. Linus only controls the kernerl, and that is
: : it. There are many other projects going on out there,
: : such as KDE, GNOME, Apache, Staroffice, etc. And most
: : software such as gcc is controled by Free Software
: : Fundation which exists early than Linux. Linus once
: : said in the future the interest in the kernerl will
: : wane, and perple will be more interested in adding
: : more fancy feature to the GUI.


--
Linux is only free when your time has no value
                                - JWZ

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 64.252.95.167]
发信人: quantum (Time 2 Change), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Oct 26 17:33:53 2000), 站内信件

【 在 magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 quantum (Time 2 Change) 的大作中提到: 】
: : So you mean not able to access source code lead to
: : better product?
: In some sense, yes.

If you have source code, you can pretend not to see
them, only use the interface. (Like you program in
QT or GTK+).

Or, in other words, you can modify the code, but
you can also chose not to. Or, modify if necessary,
and you feel you are competent enough.

: Being able to manipulate the source code directly usually
: discourages code reuse in some more systematic way,
: and makes the client code rely heavily on
: the internal implementation details of the component being
: reused.

If you hide you code, some of the bugs will be never find.
You direct client (developer) won't able to write
program correctly. If you have used some trash M$
'library', you will understand how improtant to at
least to have a peak at the source code of the
library.




--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 165.91.120.210]
发信人: yfei (Scorpion), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Oct 26 17:35:27 2000) WWW-POST

Hi, so many Linux soldiers here, but I really love M$ ! 
Not because I give $ to MS, on the contray, MS gives me $! 
Why so many people from family to company are using M$
stuff?  They are all idiot? 

Let's calculate.  Just a simple thing on web browsing.
Netscape need ~20M of ram to run, while IE only need ~12M,
and runs faster better.  Let's assume for every web page NS
spend 0.1 sec more than IE, 1000 web pages perday, so 1 year
time (about the frequent MS or Linux publish new version for
sale), That is 3*10^4 sec = 10 hour. 

If we use this time to wash tray, $10*10 = $100  just the
price for Win98.





【 在 microbe (奇妙的微生物) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 bz (bz) 的大作中提到: 】
: : 【 在 microbe (奇妙的微生物) 的大作中提到: 】
: : : Don't speak for others, OK?  I need it, and users need it.
: : No one speaks for others, OK?  you need software, I need applications,
: : so do other users. But the linux world does not need MS-made software,
:
: So do _not_ speak for the "linux world".  Period.
:
: : we need specification. Even MS might provide some binaries for Linux,
: : what do we have? We still need to rely on MS, if it does not provide
: : specifications. Have not we sufferred enough from MS dark-boxes? Are you
: : playing asf on linux? Do you know how many linux video players are forced to
: : quit by MS?
:
: We have been relying on MS.  People are using Windows because they rely on MS.
: The fact MS would develop Linux software would only bring some of them back to
: Linux, not vice versa.
:
: : : Linux has been changing from a hacker's OS into a desktop
: : : OS, and people need more applications.  They don't mind
: : : paying for them.  And if we have more good softwares, Linux
: : : users will become more.
: : This is right, we hope linux can do good job on pc, but MS will make
: : good applications for free or low cost? Microbe, how many commercial
: : software are you using for your linux? how many of them were paid?
: : even under windows, how many are paid by you? cheap games are not counted.
:
: I am a poor student.  Don't ask me this question.  But universities, companies,
: governments are not poor.  They throw money to good softwares.  Being free
: is not a good enough excuse for not being able to provide good enough
: software, nor rejecting it.
:
: : "They don't mind paying for them"? Who are they? Do not speak for others, OK?
:
: I know it as a fact.  USA is not China.
:
: : : I like Linux, but as a desktop OS it still doesn't suffice.
: : I just do not know why ppl ask so much from linux? if linux can keep the
: : advantages that ppl like now, and then it has more and more beautiful
: : apps, where will MS be? So if your linux can handle your needs well, then
: : use linux, if you find only MS can do well for your case, then go for MS
: : windows, if you want them both, then you have gotta figure out your own way.
:
: If you don't know why people are asking more and more, go back to play with
: Linux 0.99, and never upgrade your computer.
:
: : : On the other hand, MS has very good software engineering.
: : : If it _does_ want to play, it will play well.
: : This is wrong, It should be "If it _does_ want to CONTROL, it will ..."
: : In the original post, it said MS would be "OPEN MINDED" to accept porting
: : to linux, let's see how open-minded it will be, ok? Personally, I do not
: : believe MS has the true-heart at all, unless it opens its specs.
: : I do not know how many ppl here know that MS developed some linux software
: : before, and how many ppl here played with those pieces before, how many here
: : know why MS stopped any linux development and even removed "linux" from all
: : its web database? now MS comes back linux world with a bright heart? Give me
: : a break first. I do not why MS made such a suden vow here either, let's wait
: : and see.
:
: If it could control Linux, it should have started doing so, and you simply
: could not stop it.  Are you begging mercy from it?
:


--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: spac-205.rice.e]
发信人: loggie (二黑 风物常换 明心可留), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Oct 26 17:38:05 2000), 转信

so the hacker rules, more fights need for even a slight improvement. :)

【 在 ayanami (尖骨头~甲亢中) 的大作中提到: 】
: hmm FYI, linus is the main but not the only coder for the linux kernel.
: And if ever, for some god forbidden reason, linus couldn;t continue his
: contribution to Linux, linux can always adopt FreeBSD's way of development
: 【 在 loggie (二黑 风物常换 明心可留) 的大作中提到: 】
: : The  problem is, if Linus refuses to make more change to the kernel, the
: : enrichment/growth of Linux user interface could be tougher.
: : MS Office developement works closely with MS Windows devlopment to make
: : user interface easier to develop, though harder for outside independent
: : developers. Probably that's one reason MS got troubles. But believe it or
: : not, some small OS/kernel changes will make application developers' life
: : much easier.
: : Somehow, we can still say Linus can shape the future of applications on
: : Linux.


--
厚积薄发, 秉诚度世

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 171.71.138.217]
发信人: quantum (Time 2 Change), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Oct 26 17:39:16 2000), 站内信件

【 在 yfei (Scorpion) 的大作中提到: 】
: Hi, so many Linux soldiers here, but I really love M$ ! 
: Not because I give $ to MS, on the contray, MS gives me $! 
: Why so many people from family to company are using M$
: stuff?  They are all idiot? 
: Let's calculate.  Just a simple thing on web browsing.
: Netscape need ~20M of ram to run, while IE only need ~12M,
: and runs faster better.  Let's assume for every web page NS
: spend 0.1 sec more than IE, 1000 web pages perday, so 1 year
: time (about the frequent MS or Linux publish new version for
: sale), That is 3*10^4 sec = 10 hour. 

If M$ release the source code of Windows, Netscape might be
only use 10M mem.


: If we use this time to wash tray, $10*10 = $100  just the
: price for Win98.
: 【 在 microbe (奇妙的微生物) 的大作中提到: 】
: : So do _not_ speak for the "linux world".  Period.
: : We have been relying on MS.  People are using Windows because they rely on MS.
: : The fact MS would develop Linux software would only bring some of them back to
: : Linux, not vice versa.
: : I am a poor student.  Don't ask me this question.  But universities, companies,
: : governments are not poor.  They throw money to good softwares.  Being free
: : is not a good enough excuse for not being able to provide good enough
: : software, nor rejecting it.
: : I know it as a fact.  USA is not China.
: : If you don't know why people are asking more and more, go back to play with
: : Linux 0.99, and never upgrade your computer.
: : If it could control Linux, it should have started doing so, and you simply
: : could not stop it.  Are you begging mercy from it?


--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 165.91.120.210]
发信人: yfei (Scorpion), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Oct 26 18:13:53 2000) WWW-POST

Haha,  No matter which OS, NS is loser.
In Linux or Windows, Netscape4.7 is always around 20M, while
IE5 is around 12M, (While Netscape6 in Linux is 35M, crazy
stuff! But I love NS6!)
If want to be neutral,  then test Netscape and IE in SunOS,
result is the same,
NS need 19M, IE need 10M.
Reason is not MS making OS,  Just because M$ is richer, have
more excellent workers making better softwares.

Go back to Linux, If let me bet on Windows or Linux,  I
choose Linux.  Because Windows rely too much on PC platform,
which is more and more limitted to home use.  While Linux
have wider applications, almost all hareware support it,
and Linux can adpot almost all Unix softwares, just like 5
years ago, new Win95 comes out, which can run all Dos
softwares.
I bet Linux gonna win,  that's why MS is changing to Linux.

Another bet is, MS will make another version of Linux, which
will gave more supportability for NT softwares, Change
rules, and kill othere Linux venders like Redhat, Debain,
BSD...   MS have infinite money, If he want to kill someone,
it's too easy.



:
: If M$ release the source code of Windows, Netscape might be
: only use 10M mem.
:
:





--
※ 修改:·yfei 於 Oct 26 18:13:53 修改本文·[FROM: spac-205.rice.e]
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: spac-205.rice.e]
发信人: quantum (Time 2 Change), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Oct 26 18:22:40 2000), 站内信件

I admit IE 5.0/5.5 is better than Netscape.

But I don't see why another version of Linux from M$ will
kill Redhat, etc. There is GPL, and everyone can  make
a copy, how M$ make $$$?

But another application, especially M$ Office for Linux,
might really attract a lot of people. This application
is really good. You know, M$ office generated more $$ for
M$ than its operating system, and will continue to be
so in the future.


【 在 yfei (Scorpion) 的大作中提到: 】
: Haha,  No matter which OS, NS is loser.
: In Linux or Windows, Netscape4.7 is always around 20M, while
: IE5 is around 12M, (While Netscape6 in Linux is 35M, crazy
: stuff! But I love NS6!)
: If want to be neutral,  then test Netscape and IE in SunOS,
: result is the same,
: NS need 19M, IE need 10M.
: Reason is not MS making OS,  Just because M$ is richer, have
: more excellent workers making better softwares.
: Go back to Linux, If let me bet on Windows or Linux,  I
: choose Linux.  Because Windows rely too much on PC platform,
: which is more and more limitted to home use.  While Linux
: have wider applications, almost all hareware support it,
: and Linux can adpot almost all Unix softwares, just like 5
: years ago, new Win95 comes out, which can run all Dos
: softwares.
: I bet Linux gonna win,  that's why MS is changing to Linux.
: Another bet is, MS will make another version of Linux, which
: will gave more supportability for NT softwares, Change
: rules, and kill othere Linux venders like Redhat, Debain,
: BSD...   MS have infinite money, If he want to kill someone,
: it's too easy.
: : If M$ release the source code of Windows, Netscape might be
: : only use 10M mem.


--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 165.91.120.210]
发信人: ayanami (尖骨头~甲亢中), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Oct 26 18:31:40 2000), 转信

So many mistakes it isnot even funny. :(

: Reason is not MS making OS,  Just because M$ is richer, have
: more excellent workers making better softwares.
I beg your pardon? Having more money doesn't mean they can make better
softwares. The management decision in this scenario can be either revively
or fatal. I think netscape was just screwing itself up by its bad management
level decisions.

: Go back to Linux, If let me bet on Windows or Linux,  I
: choose Linux.  Because Windows rely too much on PC platform,
: which is more and more limitted to home use.  While Linux
WinCE doesn't only run on Intel (Only).

: have wider applications, almost all hareware support it,
Linux's advantage is not that it runs on the most platforms. OpenBSD does.
And it is not hardware to support software, rather the reverse.

: and Linux can adpot almost all Unix softwares, just like 5
: years ago, new Win95 comes out, which can run all Dos
: softwares.
Now that doesn't make sense anymore. You can't link your program to a
priopietary library without paying for it.

: I bet Linux gonna win,  that's why MS is changing to Linux.
MS == windows. It would be laughable and business-wise fatal if they decide
to jump on te linux wagon.

: Another bet is, MS will make another version of Linux, which
Call it microsoftinix if you want, but that is not Linux anymore.

: will gave more supportability for NT softwares, Change
: rules, and kill othere Linux venders like Redhat, Debain,
How do they kill debian? Please enlighten me...

: BSD...   MS have infinite money, If he want to kill someone,
how clueless.. BSD is not a linux vendor. -_-;;

: it's too easy.
It is like saying yahooo has infinite money..


: : If M$ release the source code of Windows, Netscape might be
: : only use 10M mem.


--
Linux is only free when your time has no value
                                - JWZ

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 64.252.95.167]
发信人: laugh (haha), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Oct 26 23:04:18 2000), 站内信件

good quote.

i don't know how to describe staroffice (5.2? newest ver). It's trash in
trash, junkiest crap i've seen. memory hog, OS killer, free software's
shame.

【 在 cato (大嘴猫) 的大作中提到: 】
: We don't want those MS garbage. We can almost do everything
: on Linux.
: We don't want to pay them those money.
: MS sucks.
: 【 在 microbe (奇妙的微生物) 的大作中提到: 】
: : I need.  If Microsoft could make Linux better (not the kernel, but
: : the UI), I would be very happy.  First thing, MS Office; Second
: : thing, Internet Explorer.  Third thing, Visual Studio.
: : Am I dreaming?


--
  ,__o
_ \<,_
(*)/ (*)

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 216.192.226.36]
发信人: laugh (haha), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Oct 26 23:27:09 2000), 站内信件

you are so paranoid! sigh. it's so funny you even attack MFC ! you know
code reuse means to software productivity? if you want to work on low
level, there is plenty of room for you to directly access hardware interfaces,
network interfaces, file mangement. oh my... it's horrible! why don't you
attack Borland's class library, linux's whatever library? what's wrong
with MS's library? it's not perfect, but it's being developed by
numeours good programmers to ease develops' programming burden and make
them focus on analysis and design. it's such simple common sense if you've
learned some computerscience!

//shake

【 在 quantum (Time 2 Change) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地) 的大作中提到: 】
: : In some sense, yes.
: If you have source code, you can pretend not to see
: them, only use the interface. (Like you program in
: QT or GTK+).
: Or, in other words, you can modify the code, but
: you can also chose not to. Or, modify if necessary,
: and you feel you are competent enough.
: : Being able to manipulate the source code directly usually
: : discourages code reuse in some more systematic way,
: : and makes the client code rely heavily on
: : the internal implementation details of the component being
: : reused.
: If you hide you code, some of the bugs will be never find.
: You direct client (developer) won't able to write
: program correctly. If you have used some trash M$
: 'library', you will understand how improtant to at
: least to have a peak at the source code of the
: library.


--
  ,__o
_ \<,_
(*)/ (*)

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 216.192.226.36]
发信人: laugh (haha), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Oct 26 23:33:05 2000), 站内信件

why opera has only 1M installation file? MS exposed code to opera software?
because Netscape is STUPID!!! Staroffice is more stupid! Netscape for
Linux is also STUPID!

【 在 quantum (Time 2 Change) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 yfei (Scorpion) 的大作中提到: 】
: : Hi, so many Linux soldiers here, but I really love M$ ! 
: : Not because I give $ to MS, on the contray, MS gives me $! 
: : Why so many people from family to company are using M$
: : stuff?  They are all idiot? 
: : Let's calculate.  Just a simple thing on web browsing.
: : Netscape need ~20M of ram to run, while IE only need ~12M,
: : and runs faster better.  Let's assume for every web page NS
: : spend 0.1 sec more than IE, 1000 web pages perday, so 1 year
: : time (about the frequent MS or Linux publish new version for
: : sale), That is 3*10^4 sec = 10 hour. 
: If M$ release the source code of Windows, Netscape might be
: only use 10M mem.
: : If we use this time to wash tray, $10*10 = $100  just the
: : price for Win98.


--
  ,__o
_ \<,_
(*)/ (*)

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 216.192.226.36]
发信人: ayanami (尖骨头~甲亢中), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Fri Oct 27 00:10:20 2000), 转信

Excuse me, but I respect JWZ for his hacking works.
So when you wanna quote Netscape as "stupid", please specify "netscape's
management" is stupid. :) Their programmers are hella smart. :)

【 在 laugh (haha) 的大作中提到: 】
: why opera has only 1M installation file? MS exposed code to opera software?
: because Netscape is STUPID!!! Staroffice is more stupid! Netscape for
: Linux is also STUPID!
: 【 在 quantum (Time 2 Change) 的大作中提到: 】
: : If M$ release the source code of Windows, Netscape might be
: : only use 10M mem.


--
Linux is only free when your time has no value
                                - JWZ

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 63.52.96.189]
发信人: junfeng (somewhere), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Fri Oct 27 00:13:49 2000), 站内信件

If you want to compare NS and IE, compare NS with IE+Outlook express+frontpage
express.


【 在 laugh (haha) 的大作中提到: 】
: why opera has only 1M installation file? MS exposed code to opera software?
: because Netscape is STUPID!!! Staroffice is more stupid! Netscape for
: Linux is also STUPID!
: 【 在 quantum (Time 2 Change) 的大作中提到: 】
: : If M$ release the source code of Windows, Netscape might be
: : only use 10M mem.


--
Together we make difference

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 144.92.241.214]
发信人: magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Fri Oct 27 11:06:01 2000), 站内信件


Well just find any software engineering book.  It'll tell you
direct source code reuse is the lowest level of software reuse
and the most defect prone.

【 在 ayanami (尖骨头~甲亢中) 的大作中提到: 】
: I dont see why. Explain?
: 【 在 magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地) 的大作中提到: 】
: : In some sense, yes.
: : Being able to manipulate the source code directly usually
: : discourages code reuse in some more systematic way,
: : and makes the client code rely heavily on
: : the internal implementation details of the component being
: : reused.


--
他号令便号令好了,又何必安静?

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 38.204.0.130]
发信人: magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Fri Oct 27 11:20:25 2000), 站内信件

【 在 quantum (Time 2 Change) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地) 的大作中提到: 】
: : In some sense, yes.
: If you have source code, you can pretend not to see
: them, only use the interface. (Like you program in
: QT or GTK+).
: Or, in other words, you can modify the code, but
: you can also chose not to. Or, modify if necessary,
: and you feel you are competent enough.

I certainly wouldn't judge the competence of a software engineer
by his/her ability to modify some source code.

The ability to reuse software by modifying its source code
makes you a competent programmer.
The ability to reuse software by extending and gluing components
together thru well defined interfaces makes you a competent architect.

: If you hide you code, some of the bugs will be never find.
: You direct client (developer) won't able to write
: program correctly. If you have used some trash M$
: 'library', you will understand how improtant to at
: least to have a peak at the source code of the
: library.

If you have to peek into the source code before you can write
program correctly, either the interfaces and documentation are
poorly designed and prepared, or you fail to understand them.
Either way, there is other better solutions (better methodology,
better process, etc.) than forcing developers to rely on
internal details of the component.

--
他号令便号令好了,又何必安静?

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 38.204.0.130]
发信人: grammy (Java版版主), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Fri Oct 27 16:04:04 2000), 转信

Nod totally.


【 在 magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 quantum (Time 2 Change) 的大作中提到: 】
: : If you have source code, you can pretend not to see
: : them, only use the interface. (Like you program in
: : QT or GTK+).
: : Or, in other words, you can modify the code, but
: : you can also chose not to. Or, modify if necessary,
: : and you feel you are competent enough.
: I certainly wouldn't judge the competence of a software engineer
: by his/her ability to modify some source code.
: The ability to reuse software by modifying its source code
: makes you a competent programmer.
: The ability to reuse software by extending and gluing components
: together thru well defined interfaces makes you a competent architect.
: : If you hide you code, some of the bugs will be never find.
: : You direct client (developer) won't able to write
: : program correctly. If you have used some trash M$
: : 'library', you will understand how improtant to at
: : least to have a peak at the source code of the
: : library.
: If you have to peek into the source code before you can write
: program correctly, either the interfaces and documentation are
: poorly designed and prepared, or you fail to understand them.
: Either way, there is other better solutions (better methodology,
: better process, etc.) than forcing developers to rely on
: internal details of the component.


--
言而有信, 知易行难。

No pains, no gains.

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 209.246.95.6]
发信人: quantum (Time 2 Change), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Mon Oct 30 23:12:00 2000), 站内信件

By your opinion, all other software company will/can
make software as good as M$ by using M$'s library.

I haven't seen one yet.


【 在 magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 quantum (Time 2 Change) 的大作中提到: 】
: : If you have source code, you can pretend not to see
: : them, only use the interface. (Like you program in
: : QT or GTK+).
: : Or, in other words, you can modify the code, but
: : you can also chose not to. Or, modify if necessary,
: : and you feel you are competent enough.
: I certainly wouldn't judge the competence of a software engineer
: by his/her ability to modify some source code.
: The ability to reuse software by modifying its source code
: makes you a competent programmer.
: The ability to reuse software by extending and gluing components
: together thru well defined interfaces makes you a competent architect.
: : If you hide you code, some of the bugs will be never find.
: : You direct client (developer) won't able to write
: : program correctly. If you have used some trash M$
: : 'library', you will understand how improtant to at
: : least to have a peak at the source code of the
: : library.
: If you have to peek into the source code before you can write
: program correctly, either the interfaces and documentation are
: poorly designed and prepared, or you fail to understand them.
: Either way, there is other better solutions (better methodology,
: better process, etc.) than forcing developers to rely on
: internal details of the component.


--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 165.91.120.210]
发信人: trajan (笨), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Tue Oct 31 11:10:30 2000), 站内信件

【 在 quantum (Time 2 Change) 的大作中提到: 】
: By your opinion, all other software company will/can
: make software as good as M$ by using M$'s library.
: I haven't seen one yet.

I guess what you want to say is: "... as BAD as M$ by using M$'s library."
I do see some.  And we will see more.

--
  天地不仁               诸行无常

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 203.127.155.65]
发信人: whh (大不了爱吃爱吃), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Nov  1 20:35:17 2000), 站内信件

Let's calculate. Just a simple thing on file deletion.
On Linux, deleting a file: type "rm xxx", done! takes less than 1 sec,
on Windows, assuming most people do it through explorer:
select file...click mouse...select delete...Bang!!! "Are you sure you want
to ..."... click Yes...Not gone yet... goto trash... clean up... now it is
really gone...I am hungry now. That's the price you pay for Windows - always
have time to enjoy those "nice" dialogs, menus, even sounds. (I have to
admit that Windows guys have better graphical taste than Linux guys, look
at these animations, gifs, etc.!@@!).

Just a joke though.

【 在 yfei (Scorpion) 的大作中提到: 】
: Hi, so many Linux soldiers here, but I really love M$ ! 
: Not because I give $ to MS, on the contray, MS gives me $! 
: Why so many people from family to company are using M$
: stuff?  They are all idiot? 
: Let's calculate.  Just a simple thing on web browsing.
: Netscape need ~20M of ram to run, while IE only need ~12M,
: and runs faster better.  Let's assume for every web page NS
: spend 0.1 sec more than IE, 1000 web pages perday, so 1 year
: time (about the frequent MS or Linux publish new version for
: sale), That is 3*10^4 sec = 10 hour. 
: If we use this time to wash tray, $10*10 = $100  just the
: price for Win98.
: 【 在 microbe (奇妙的微生物) 的大作中提到: 】
: : So do _not_ speak for the "linux world".  Period.
: : We have been relying on MS.  People are using Windows because they rely on MS.
: : The fact MS would develop Linux software would only bring some of them back to
: : Linux, not vice versa.
: : I am a poor student.  Don't ask me this question.  But universities, companies,
: : governments are not poor.  They throw money to good softwares.  Being free
: : is not a good enough excuse for not being able to provide good enough
: : software, nor rejecting it.
: : I know it as a fact.  USA is not China.
: : If you don't know why people are asking more and more, go back to play with
: : Linux 0.99, and never upgrade your computer.
: : If it could control Linux, it should have started doing so, and you simply
: : could not stop it.  Are you begging mercy from it?


--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 204.69.198.66]
发信人: whh (大不了爱吃爱吃), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Nov  1 20:52:12 2000), 站内信件

【 在 magicfat (魔法胖子~痛扁Jungle的基地) 的大作中提到: 】
: I certainly wouldn't judge the competence of a software engineer
: by his/her ability to modify some source code.
: The ability to reuse software by modifying its source code
: makes you a competent programmer.
: The ability to reuse software by extending and gluing components
: together thru well defined interfaces makes you a competent architect.

Mmm, I am pretty good at reusing find, grep, xargs, gawk, bash, etc. and
able to glue them together to do a lot of things (no lies here). I am shy
to admit I am a competent architect.

: If you have to peek into the source code before you can write
: program correctly, either the interfaces and documentation are
: poorly designed and prepared, or you fail to understand them.
: Either way, there is other better solutions (better methodology,
: better process, etc.) than forcing developers to rely on
: internal details of the component.

No software documents/manuals give all you want to know. Take a simple
example, fopen() function. How much memory it takes? What underlying
system calls it calls? What's the speed of fopen() compared to open()?
Is fopen() subject to the same restriction that open() has? Can you find
any manual/document that talks all these details? So why do I ask these
questions that are not answered in document? Since every app I develop
has its intrinsic way of using the function, sometime I have performance
requirement, other times, memory restraint pops up. How can I answer
those questions? One way is try and fail and try again... Then why
not look at the source code to figure out what is there? Knowing more
details of what you depend on only makes you better utilize them.

--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 204.69.198.66]
发信人: jinfeng (PigHead), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Nov  1 20:56:32 2000), 站内信件

【 在 whh (大不了爱吃爱吃) 的大作中提到: 】
: Let's calculate. Just a simple thing on file deletion.
: On Linux, deleting a file: type "rm xxx", done! takes less than 1 sec,
: on Windows, assuming most people do it through explorer:
: select file...click mouse...select delete...Bang!!! "Are you sure you want
: to ..."... click Yes...Not gone yet... goto trash... clean up... now it is

your flaw here is comparing a console with a GUI.

plus:
just like removing "-i" from default rm setting in linux
you can disable the confirmation option in windows.

having an "undoable" recycle bin is like installing airbags
in autos. well, someone does drive super well and accident free,
but that can't justify removing airbags & ABS, which are welcome
by most drivers.

: really gone...I am hungry now. That's the price you pay for Windows - always
: have time to enjoy those "nice" dialogs, menus, even sounds. (I have to
: admit that Windows guys have better graphical taste than Linux guys, look
: at these animations, gifs, etc.!@@!).
: Just a joke though.
: 【 在 yfei (Scorpion) 的大作中提到: 】
: : Hi, so many Linux soldiers here, but I really love M$ ! 
: : Not because I give $ to MS, on the contray, MS gives me $! 
: : Why so many people from family to company are using M$
: : stuff?  They are all idiot? 
: : Let's calculate.  Just a simple thing on web browsing.
: : Netscape need ~20M of ram to run, while IE only need ~12M,
: : and runs faster better.  Let's assume for every web page NS
: : spend 0.1 sec more than IE, 1000 web pages perday, so 1 year
: : time (about the frequent MS or Linux publish new version for
: : sale), That is 3*10^4 sec = 10 hour. 
: : If we use this time to wash tray, $10*10 = $100  just the
: : price for Win98.


--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 140.233.201.12]
发信人: microbe (奇妙的微生物), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Nov  1 21:06:29 2000), 站内信件


Well, I long for an Explorer under Linux, so that I wouldn't have to type
pathnames to explore the huge file system.  Instead, just click..

【 在 whh (大不了爱吃爱吃) 的大作中提到: 】
: Let's calculate. Just a simple thing on file deletion.
: On Linux, deleting a file: type "rm xxx", done! takes less than 1 sec,
: on Windows, assuming most people do it through explorer:
: select file...click mouse...select delete...Bang!!! "Are you sure you want
: to ..."... click Yes...Not gone yet... goto trash... clean up... now it is
: really gone...I am hungry now. That's the price you pay for Windows - always
: have time to enjoy those "nice" dialogs, menus, even sounds. (I have to
: admit that Windows guys have better graphical taste than Linux guys, look
: at these animations, gifs, etc.!@@!).
: Just a joke though.
: 【 在 yfei (Scorpion) 的大作中提到: 】
: : Hi, so many Linux soldiers here, but I really love M$ ! 
: : Not because I give $ to MS, on the contray, MS gives me $! 
: : Why so many people from family to company are using M$
: : stuff?  They are all idiot? 
: : Let's calculate.  Just a simple thing on web browsing.
: : Netscape need ~20M of ram to run, while IE only need ~12M,
: : and runs faster better.  Let's assume for every web page NS
: : spend 0.1 sec more than IE, 1000 web pages perday, so 1 year
: : time (about the frequent MS or Linux publish new version for
: : sale), That is 3*10^4 sec = 10 hour. 
: : If we use this time to wash tray, $10*10 = $100  just the
: : price for Win98.


--
我在门外坐了两天两夜,看着天空在不断的变化。
我才发现,虽然我到这里很久,却从来没有看清楚这片沙漠。

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 160.39.200.28]
发信人: qili (qili), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Nov  1 21:14:26 2000), 站内信件

【 在 whh (大不了爱吃爱吃) 的大作中提到: 】
: Let's calculate. Just a simple thing on file deletion.
: On Linux, deleting a file: type "rm xxx", done! takes less than 1 sec,
: on Windows, assuming most people do it through explorer:
: select file...click mouse...select delete...Bang!!! "Are you sure you want
: to ..."... click Yes...Not gone yet... goto trash... clean up... now it is
: really gone...I am hungry now. That's the price you pay for Windows - always
: have time to enjoy those "nice" dialogs, menus, even sounds. (I have to
: admit that Windows guys have better graphical taste than Linux guys, look
: at these animations, gifs, etc.!@@!).

a typical computer user in the US deletes a file:
under Linux:
a) staring at CLI: "what the --- is this? Where is my mouse?"
b) asking co-workers: no one has a clue;
c) frustrated, going to the kitchen to get a cup of tea. Chatting
with Barb on how stupid this Linux is;
d) trying to find out where to attach a mouse;
e) giving up, lookinginto the phone book for help desk #.
f) couldn't find it. Pissed, going to the water cooler again.
g) looking at the clock, realizing it's 5pm. Going home.
h) coming back the next day, finally got the help desk number.
i) not able to understand that geek on the phone, calling
another geek. Still no clue.
j) frustrated, called HR to quit (the employer has to pay the
headhunter's fee anyway).

The point?

not everyone is as smart as you are. Years ago, when you were still
in diapers, there were people who coded in assembly languages looking
down on people who coded fortran / basic / even C for the "perceived"
lack of understanding of basic instructions.

We have long passed that. It is silly to look down on people who rely
on GUI, as much as Linus looking down on you for not having the slightest
clue on how Linux kernel trully works.


--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 209.246.81.151]
发信人: jinfeng (PigHead), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Nov  1 21:20:57 2000), 转信

yeah, the learning curve for unix is just
way too long. the most freq words a typical
user has are like "what the XXXX..." and the
most freq expression is "pissed."


【 在 qili (qili) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 whh (大不了爱吃爱吃) 的大作中提到: 】
: : Let's calculate. Just a simple thing on file deletion.
: : On Linux, deleting a file: type "rm xxx", done! takes less than 1 sec,
: : on Windows, assuming most people do it through explorer:
: : select file...click mouse...select delete...Bang!!! "Are you sure you want
: : to ..."... click Yes...Not gone yet... goto trash... clean up... now it is
: : really gone...I am hungry now. That's the price you pay for Windows - always
: : have time to enjoy those "nice" dialogs, menus, even sounds. (I have to
: : admit that Windows guys have better graphical taste than Linux guys, look
: : at these animations, gifs, etc.!@@!).
: a typical computer user in the US deletes a file:
: under Linux:
: a) staring at CLI: "what the --- is this? Where is my mouse?"
: b) asking co-workers: no one has a clue;
: c) frustrated, going to the kitchen to get a cup of tea. Chatting
: with Barb on how stupid this Linux is;
: d) trying to find out where to attach a mouse;
: e) giving up, lookinginto the phone book for help desk #.
: f) couldn't find it. Pissed, going to the water cooler again.
: g) looking at the clock, realizing it's 5pm. Going home.
: h) coming back the next day, finally got the help desk number.
: i) not able to understand that geek on the phone, calling
: another geek. Still no clue.
: j) frustrated, called HR to quit (the employer has to pay the
: headhunter's fee anyway).
: The point?
: not everyone is as smart as you are. Years ago, when you were still
: in diapers, there were people who coded in assembly languages looking
: down on people who coded fortran / basic / even C for the "perceived"
: lack of understanding of basic instructions.
: We have long passed that. It is silly to look down on people who rely
: on GUI, as much as Linus looking down on you for not having the slightest
: clue on how Linux kernel trully works.


--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 140.233.201.12]
发信人: qili (qili), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Nov  1 21:30:52 2000), 站内信件

【 在 whh (大不了爱吃爱吃) 的大作中提到: 】
: Mmm, I am pretty good at reusing find, grep, xargs, gawk, bash, etc. and
: able to glue them together to do a lot of things (no lies here). I am shy
: to admit I am a competent architect.

what's the purpose of using find, grep, xargs, etc. if there are more user-friendly
tools that do the same job? Should someone who can program in C on the fly to
achieve the same goal call you a fool just because you used find, grep, xargs, etc.?
No. Resorting to lower-level tools doesn't automatically make you
a better / more competent person.

: No software documents/manuals give all you want to know. Take a simple
: example, fopen() function. How much memory it takes? What underlying
: system calls it calls? What's the speed of fopen() compared to open()?
: Is fopen() subject to the same restriction that open() has? Can you find
: any manual/document that talks all these details? So why do I ask these
: questions that are not answered in document? Since every app I develop
: has its intrinsic way of using the function, sometime I have performance
: requirement, other times, memory restraint pops up. How can I answer
: those questions? One way is try and fail and try again... Then why
: not look at the source code to figure out what is there? Knowing more
: details of what you depend on only makes you better utilize them.

thinking about how much resources would be wasted if every single user
goes through the same exercise you went through on fopen() vs. open().
think about what a productivity drag it would be to every businss. We,
collectively, is better off using a seemingly less efficient program
running on a lot of RAM than your alternative.

Give you another example. There is no question in my mind that knowing
how the electrons move inside your CPU would help make a better program,
however marginally. Does that mean we all should go through a 7-yr
PhD program in semiconductor physics?

the world "specialization" should remind you of something.

--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 209.246.81.151]
发信人: microbe (奇妙的微生物), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Nov  1 21:37:20 2000), 站内信件


Yes.  Congrats to whoever have passed this curve.  Feel proud.  :)

【 在 jinfeng (PigHead) 的大作中提到: 】
: yeah, the learning curve for unix is just
: way too long. the most freq words a typical
: user has are like "what the XXXX..." and the
: most freq expression is "pissed."
: 【 在 qili (qili) 的大作中提到: 】
: : a typical computer user in the US deletes a file:
: : under Linux:
: : a) staring at CLI: "what the --- is this? Where is my mouse?"
: : b) asking co-workers: no one has a clue;
: : c) frustrated, going to the kitchen to get a cup of tea. Chatting
: : with Barb on how stupid this Linux is;
: : d) trying to find out where to attach a mouse;
: : e) giving up, lookinginto the phone book for help desk #.
: : f) couldn't find it. Pissed, going to the water cooler again.
: : g) looking at the clock, realizing it's 5pm. Going home.
: : h) coming back the next day, finally got the help desk number.
: : i) not able to understand that geek on the phone, calling
: : another geek. Still no clue.
: : j) frustrated, called HR to quit (the employer has to pay the
: : headhunter's fee anyway).
: : The point?
: : not everyone is as smart as you are. Years ago, when you were still
: : in diapers, there were people who coded in assembly languages looking
: : down on people who coded fortran / basic / even C for the "perceived"
: : lack of understanding of basic instructions.
: : We have long passed that. It is silly to look down on people who rely
: : on GUI, as much as Linus looking down on you for not having the slightest
: : clue on how Linux kernel trully works.


--
我在门外坐了两天两夜,看着天空在不断的变化。
我才发现,虽然我到这里很久,却从来没有看清楚这片沙漠。

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 160.39.200.28]
发信人: grammy (Java版版主), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Nov  1 21:49:38 2000), 转信

Nod.

【 在 jinfeng (PigHead) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 whh (大不了爱吃爱吃) 的大作中提到: 】
: : Let's calculate. Just a simple thing on file deletion.
: : On Linux, deleting a file: type "rm xxx", done! takes less than 1 sec,
: : on Windows, assuming most people do it through explorer:
: : select file...click mouse...select delete...Bang!!! "Are you sure you want
: : to ..."... click Yes...Not gone yet... goto trash... clean up... now it is
: your flaw here is comparing a console with a GUI.
: plus:
: just like removing "-i" from default rm setting in linux
: you can disable the confirmation option in windows.
: having an "undoable" recycle bin is like installing airbags
: in autos. well, someone does drive super well and accident free,
: but that can't justify removing airbags & ABS, which are welcome
: by most drivers.
: : really gone...I am hungry now. That's the price you pay for Windows - always
: : have time to enjoy those "nice" dialogs, menus, even sounds. (I have to
: : admit that Windows guys have better graphical taste than Linux guys, look
: : at these animations, gifs, etc.!@@!).
: : Just a joke though.


--
言而有信, 知易行难。

No pains, no gains.

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 209.246.103.190]
发信人: Nike (小风子), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Nov  1 22:00:05 2000), 站内信件

How about :)

a file named "HardOnE.fil"

using a dos box:

del hardone.fil
Done!

or linux console:
rm HardOne.fil
File not found?



【 在 whh (大不了爱吃爱吃) 的大作中提到: 】
: Let's calculate. Just a simple thing on file deletion.
: On Linux, deleting a file: type "rm xxx", done! takes less than 1 sec,
: on Windows, assuming most people do it through explorer:
: select file...click mouse...select delete...Bang!!! "Are you sure you want
: to ..."... click Yes...Not gone yet... goto trash... clean up... now it is
: really gone...I am hungry now. That's the price you pay for Windows - always
: have time to enjoy those "nice" dialogs, menus, even sounds. (I have to
: admit that Windows guys have better graphical taste than Linux guys, look
: at these animations, gifs, etc.!@@!).
: Just a joke though.
: 【 在 yfei (Scorpion) 的大作中提到: 】
: : Hi, so many Linux soldiers here, but I really love M$ ! 
: : Not because I give $ to MS, on the contray, MS gives me $! 
: : Why so many people from family to company are using M$
: : stuff?  They are all idiot? 
: : Let's calculate.  Just a simple thing on web browsing.
: : Netscape need ~20M of ram to run, while IE only need ~12M,
: : and runs faster better.  Let's assume for every web page NS
: : spend 0.1 sec more than IE, 1000 web pages perday, so 1 year
: : time (about the frequent MS or Linux publish new version for
: : sale), That is 3*10^4 sec = 10 hour. 
: : If we use this time to wash tray, $10*10 = $100  just the
: : price for Win98.


--


睡不着。

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 128.135.227.36]
发信人: Nike (小风子), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Nov  1 22:07:35 2000), 站内信件

There are yah.

【 在 microbe (奇妙的微生物) 的大作中提到: 】
: Well, I long for an Explorer under Linux, so that I wouldn't have to type
: pathnames to explore the huge file system.  Instead, just click..
: 【 在 whh (大不了爱吃爱吃) 的大作中提到: 】
: : Let's calculate. Just a simple thing on file deletion.
: : On Linux, deleting a file: type "rm xxx", done! takes less than 1 sec,
: : on Windows, assuming most people do it through explorer:
: : select file...click mouse...select delete...Bang!!! "Are you sure you want
: : to ..."... click Yes...Not gone yet... goto trash... clean up... now it is
: : really gone...I am hungry now. That's the price you pay for Windows - always
: : have time to enjoy those "nice" dialogs, menus, even sounds. (I have to
: : admit that Windows guys have better graphical taste than Linux guys, look
: : at these animations, gifs, etc.!@@!).
: : Just a joke though.


--


睡不着。

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 128.135.227.36]
发信人: devil (闲人), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Nov  1 23:01:51 2000), 站内信件

【 在 Nike (小风子) 的大作中提到: 】
: How about :)
: a file named "HardOnE.fil"
: using a dos box:
: del hardone.fil
: Done!
: or linux console:
: rm HardOne.fil
: File not found?

what I am doing is ...
rm H {tab} \\beep then "a" {tab} \\beep then "r" {tab} \\enter
Done!   ;pp

//hehe ...
I like CLI, really cool, powerful ...
but as I said long time ago, it is not the one for you old father
even your sister, who is studing art ...

my parents know nothing about computer,
but with windows, they can use my home pc surf the net ..
I only used 30 min to setup environment and 1 hour to
teach them ...

: 【 在 whh (大不了爱吃爱吃) 的大作中提到: 】
: : Let's calculate. Just a simple thing on file deletion.
: : On Linux, deleting a file: type "rm xxx", done! takes less than 1 sec,
: : on Windows, assuming most people do it through explorer:
: : select file...click mouse...select delete...Bang!!! "Are you sure you want
: : to ..."... click Yes...Not gone yet... goto trash... clean up... now it is
: : really gone...I am hungry now. That's the price you pay for Windows - always
: : have time to enjoy those "nice" dialogs, menus, even sounds. (I have to
: : admit that Windows guys have better graphical taste than Linux guys, look
: : at these animations, gifs, etc.!@@!).
: : Just a joke though.


--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 204.69.198.34]
发信人: devil (闲人), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Nov  1 23:11:38 2000), 站内信件

【 在 qili (qili) 的大作中提到: 】
: The point?
: not everyone is as smart as you are. Years ago, when you were still
: in diapers, there were people who coded in assembly languages looking
: down on people who coded fortran / basic / even C for the "perceived"
: lack of understanding of basic instructions.

even c programmer look down on VC programmer,
even they are just writing some application,  ...

couple of year ago, when I first time introduce FoxPro/VB for Win31
to our lab, try to ask them to use that to develop one of our
project, a MIS system, they refused to use that, coz' they prefer
using C .... //sigh


: We have long passed that. It is silly to look down on people who rely
: on GUI, as much as Linus looking down on you for not having the slightest
: clue on how Linux kernel trully works.


--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 204.69.198.34]
发信人: dapengz (不败的恋人), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Wed Nov  1 23:37:57 2000), 站内信件

on win2000, rm H {tab} {tab} {tab} \\enter
Done!   :pp

: what I am doing is ...
: rm H {tab} \\beep then "a" {tab} \\beep then "r" {tab} \\enter
: Done!   ;pp
: //hehe ...
: I like CLI, really cool, powerful ...
: but as I said long time ago, it is not the one for you old father
: even your sister, who is studing art ...
: my parents know nothing about computer,
: but with windows, they can use my home pc surf the net ..
: I only used 30 min to setup environment and 1 hour to
: teach them ...


--
There are three kinds of persons on this planet.  Those who can count and
those who can't.

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 128.12.194.52]
发信人: HoMErSuX (灌水有理), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Nov  2 10:16:43 2000), 转信

a moron is a moron. hehe
I do not care about how a moron thinks.
【 在 qili (qili) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 whh (大不了爱吃爱吃) 的大作中提到: 】
: : Let's calculate. Just a simple thing on file deletion.
: : On Linux, deleting a file: type "rm xxx", done! takes less than 1 sec,
: : on Windows, assuming most people do it through explorer:
: : select file...click mouse...select delete...Bang!!! "Are you sure you want
: : to ..."... click Yes...Not gone yet... goto trash... clean up... now it is
: : really gone...I am hungry now. That's the price you pay for Windows - always
: : have time to enjoy those "nice" dialogs, menus, even sounds. (I have to
: : admit that Windows guys have better graphical taste than Linux guys, look
: : at these animations, gifs, etc.!@@!).
: a typical computer user in the US deletes a file:
: under Linux:
: a) staring at CLI: "what the --- is this? Where is my mouse?"
: b) asking co-workers: no one has a clue;
: c) frustrated, going to the kitchen to get a cup of tea. Chatting
: with Barb on how stupid this Linux is;
: d) trying to find out where to attach a mouse;
: e) giving up, lookinginto the phone book for help desk #.
: f) couldn't find it. Pissed, going to the water cooler again.
: g) looking at the clock, realizing it's 5pm. Going home.
: h) coming back the next day, finally got the help desk number.
: i) not able to understand that geek on the phone, calling
: another geek. Still no clue.
: j) frustrated, called HR to quit (the employer has to pay the
: headhunter's fee anyway).
: The point?
: not everyone is as smart as you are. Years ago, when you were still
: in diapers, there were people who coded in assembly languages looking
: down on people who coded fortran / basic / even C for the "perceived"
: lack of understanding of basic instructions.
: We have long passed that. It is silly to look down on people who rely
: on GUI, as much as Linus looking down on you for not having the slightest
: clue on how Linux kernel trully works.


--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 128.220.24.81]
发信人: loggie (二黑 风物常换 明心可留), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Nov  2 14:47:20 2000), 转信

well, your bread is coming from their paycheck. :)

【 在 HoMErSuX (灌水有理) 的大作中提到: 】
: a moron is a moron. hehe
: I do not care about how a moron thinks.
: 【 在 qili (qili) 的大作中提到: 】
: : a typical computer user in the US deletes a file:
: : under Linux:
: : a) staring at CLI: "what the --- is this? Where is my mouse?"
: : b) asking co-workers: no one has a clue;
: : c) frustrated, going to the kitchen to get a cup of tea. Chatting
: : with Barb on how stupid this Linux is;
: : d) trying to find out where to attach a mouse;
: : e) giving up, lookinginto the phone book for help desk #.
: : f) couldn't find it. Pissed, going to the water cooler again.
: : g) looking at the clock, realizing it's 5pm. Going home.
: : h) coming back the next day, finally got the help desk number.
: : i) not able to understand that geek on the phone, calling
: : another geek. Still no clue.
: : j) frustrated, called HR to quit (the employer has to pay the
: : headhunter's fee anyway).
: : The point?
: : not everyone is as smart as you are. Years ago, when you were still
: : in diapers, there were people who coded in assembly languages looking
: : down on people who coded fortran / basic / even C for the "perceived"
: : lack of understanding of basic instructions.
: : We have long passed that. It is silly to look down on people who rely
: : on GUI, as much as Linus looking down on you for not having the slightest
: : clue on how Linux kernel trully works.


--
厚积薄发, 秉诚度世

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 171.71.138.217]
发信人: whh (大不了爱吃爱吃), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Nov  2 17:36:33 2000), 站内信件


【 在 jinfeng (PigHead) 的大作中提到: 】
: your flaw here is comparing a console with a GUI.

They are the usual ways to go in Linux and Windows, respectively.

: plus:
: just like removing "-i" from default rm setting in linux
: you can disable the confirmation option in windows.

I believe bash shell in default RedHat does not have -i option on.

: having an "undoable" recycle bin is like installing airbags
: in autos. well, someone does drive super well and accident free,
: but that can't justify removing airbags & ABS, which are welcome
: by most drivers.

Not (welcomed) if airbags & ABS cut in everytime when you are driving.

--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 204.69.198.66]
发信人: whh (大不了爱吃爱吃), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Nov  2 17:51:46 2000), 站内信件


【 在 qili (qili) 的大作中提到: 】
: what's the purpose of using find, grep, xargs, etc. if there are more user-friendly
: tools that do the same job? Should someone who can program in C on the fly to
: achieve the same goal call you a fool just because you used find, grep, xargs, etc.?
: No. Resorting to lower-level tools doesn't automatically make you
: a better / more competent person.

The answer is in many cases you have to rely on these "low-level" tools to
do meaningful work. Imagine your computer needs to clean up some garbage/find
security holes everyday. Writting scripts using these Unix commands is just
the simplest/quickest way to do that. On Windows, how do you combine these
GUI tools to do specific things that not one single program can do? As
Windows evolves into broader markets, Unix like scripts are inevitable. BAT
files, WSH(?), ...

: thinking about how much resources would be wasted if every single user
: goes through the same exercise you went through on fopen() vs. open().
: think about what a productivity drag it would be to every businss. We,
: collectively, is better off using a seemingly less efficient program
: running on a lot of RAM than your alternative.

So that depends. If you want to do work quick, use high level (inefficient)
tools is definitely fine and recommended. Just like Unix scripts. If you
are writting serious software (potentially big), think deep.

: Give you another example. There is no question in my mind that knowing
: how the electrons move inside your CPU would help make a better program,
: however marginally. Does that mean we all should go through a 7-yr
: PhD program in semiconductor physics?
: the world "specialization" should remind you of something.

That depends again. If you are writting OS, database, even Office itself, etc.
efficiency definitely is an important thing to consider. I would imagine
these developers should seriously consider assembly language level performance.
Once again, if you are writting some simple financial report tool, do it
whatever way is the simplest.

--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 204.69.198.66]
发信人: whh (大不了爱吃爱吃), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Nov  2 17:55:03 2000), 站内信件

Another example Windows tries to copy "outdated" Unix shell features...

【 在 dapengz (不败的恋人) 的大作中提到: 】
: on win2000, rm H {tab} {tab} {tab} \\enter
: Done!   :pp
: : what I am doing is ...
: : rm H {tab} \\beep then "a" {tab} \\beep then "r" {tab} \\enter
: : Done!   ;pp
: : //hehe ...
: : I like CLI, really cool, powerful ...
: : but as I said long time ago, it is not the one for you old father
: : even your sister, who is studing art ...
: : my parents know nothing about computer,
: : but with windows, they can use my home pc surf the net ..
: : I only used 30 min to setup environment and 1 hour to
: : teach them ...


--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 204.69.198.66]
发信人: qili (qili), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Nov  2 20:42:42 2000), 站内信件

【 在 whh (大不了爱吃爱吃) 的大作中提到: 】
: The answer is in many cases you have to rely on these "low-level" tools to
: do meaningful work. Imagine your computer needs to clean up some garbage/find
: security holes everyday. Writting scripts using these Unix commands is just
: the simplest/quickest way to do that. On Windows, how do you combine these
: GUI tools to do specific things that not one single program can do? As
: Windows evolves into broader markets, Unix like scripts are inevitable. BAT
: files, WSH(?), ...

what percentage of windows users, or Unix users for that matter, do you think
clean up garbage / find security holes everyday? For that matter, what
percentage of Linux users do you think can program in assembly?

I would venture a guess. How about <1% for starters.

Do you seriously think Windows, Unix or even Linux are intended to that
part of the market?

: That depends again. If you are writting OS, database, even Office itself, etc.
: efficiency definitely is an important thing to consider. I would imagine
: these developers should seriously consider assembly language level performance.
: Once again, if you are writting some simple financial report tool, do it
: whatever way is the simplest.

Again, how many of us write OS / database / etc. on daily basis? How many
OS are written in assembly (last time I checked, the majority of Linux
is done in C, which was originally written to help write an OS).

Again, being able to write in low-level languages is a fine ability, but
by no means a telling sign of a good programmer from a bad programmer.

--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 63.210.215.20]
发信人: ayanami (尖骨头~甲亢中), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Nov  2 20:45:08 2000), 转信

Being strapped in the low level details help you understand the inside
of computer better, but it will hinder your ability to do large scale designs
when all your time is spent on debugging malloc and frees.

【 在 qili (qili) 的大作中提到: 】
: 【 在 whh (大不了爱吃爱吃) 的大作中提到: 】
: : The answer is in many cases you have to rely on these "low-level" tools to
: : do meaningful work. Imagine your computer needs to clean up some garbage/find
: : security holes everyday. Writting scripts using these Unix commands is just
: : the simplest/quickest way to do that. On Windows, how do you combine these
: : GUI tools to do specific things that not one single program can do? As
: : Windows evolves into broader markets, Unix like scripts are inevitable. BAT
: : files, WSH(?), ...
: what percentage of windows users, or Unix users for that matter, do you think
: clean up garbage / find security holes everyday? For that matter, what
: percentage of Linux users do you think can program in assembly?
: I would venture a guess. How about <1% for starters.
: Do you seriously think Windows, Unix or even Linux are intended to that
: part of the market?
: : That depends again. If you are writting OS, database, even Office itself, etc.
: : efficiency definitely is an important thing to consider. I would imagine
: : these developers should seriously consider assembly language level performance.
: : Once again, if you are writting some simple financial report tool, do it
: : whatever way is the simplest.
: Again, how many of us write OS / database / etc. on daily basis? How many
: OS are written in assembly (last time I checked, the majority of Linux
: is done in C, which was originally written to help write an OS).
: Again, being able to write in low-level languages is a fine ability, but
: by no means a telling sign of a good programmer from a bad programmer.


--
Linux is only free when your time has no value
                                - JWZ

※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 64.252.95.167]
发信人: qili (qili), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Thu Nov  2 21:05:38 2000), 站内信件

【 在 ayanami (尖骨头~甲亢中) 的大作中提到: 】
: Being strapped in the low level details help you understand the inside
: of computer better, but it will hinder your ability to do large scale designs
: when all your time is spent on debugging malloc and frees.

Very true. there is no shortage of people who can turn flow charts into
fast and reliable codes. People who can design a software package, break
it into small pieces for the programmers make serious money. People who
can identify a niche, and come up the ideals for the products make
billions.

That unfortunately is how the world value different talents.

--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 63.210.215.20]
发信人: whh (大不了爱吃爱吃), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Fri Nov  3 18:02:03 2000), 站内信件

【 在 qili (qili) 的大作中提到: 】
: what percentage of windows users, or Unix users for that matter, do you think
: clean up garbage / find security holes everyday? For that matter, what
: percentage of Linux users do you think can program in assembly?
: I would venture a guess. How about <1% for starters.
: Do you seriously think Windows, Unix or even Linux are intended to that
: part of the market?

Only talking about developers, not common users. Those understanding low
level details (even not do that everyday) usually command bigger dollars.
Look at software companies doing both app and system level development,
see who get more dollars and stock options.

: Again, how many of us write OS / database / etc. on daily basis? How many
: OS are written in assembly (last time I checked, the majority of Linux
: is done in C, which was originally written to help write an OS).

Hehe, I guess you never looked at Linux kernel source code. Critical parts
are written according to CPU scheduling details even if it is in C and gcc
is a good compiler.

: Again, being able to write in low-level languages is a fine ability, but
: by no means a telling sign of a good programmer from a bad programmer.

Being able to write in low-level languages is not that important, but how you
write programs. Usually a good one knows more details of what he depends on
than bad ones.

--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 204.69.198.66]
发信人: qili (qili), 信区: ITnews
标  题: Re: 巴尔默:微软考虑生产Linux软件
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Fri Nov  3 20:34:56 2000), 站内信件

【 在 whh (大不了爱吃爱吃) 的大作中提到: 】
: Only talking about developers, not common users.

in that context, cli is probably preferred to gui. However, the lack of
commmon users on cli makes your original statement less than truthful.

: Those understanding low
: level details (even not do that everyday) usually command bigger dollars.
: Look at software companies doing both app and system level development,
: see who get more dollars and stock options.

I don't work in a software company so I cannot speak to it. There seems to be
a big difference between knowing low-level details and actually doing low-level
detailed work which is the original discussion. For someone to be a great
designer, knowing how to use a cli doesn't seem to be the most relevant
skill. No?

: Hehe, I guess you never looked at Linux kernel source code. Critical parts
: are written according to CPU scheduling details even if it is in C and gcc
: is a good compiler.

I think you pretty much answered your own question. Why isn't other 90% of
Linux written in assembly?

: Being able to write in low-level languages is not that important, but how you
: write programs. Usually a good one knows more details of what he depends on
: than bad ones.

That I completely agree. I don't think there is any reasonably tie between
one's ability to operate in a cli environment and one's ability to
program well. and being able to use cli fluently doesn't automatically make
one superior to those who cannot operate as efficiently in cli.

--
※ 来源:.The unknown SPACE bbs.mit.edu.[FROM: 209.246.64.250]

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